I received the following message from the ten minute clip of this lesson on YouTube.
Please post the rest of the lesson. This is so detailed and helping me to really understand. I wonder about this all the time and can’t find teachings that are complete. Every time I have asked a preacher about this all I hear is “Don’t worry about that, it doesn’t happen anymore.” I want to understand and stop wondering. Thank you for this lesson, hope you can add more. God bless you.
This is why I started using Vimeo for my videos. I don’t have to chop them up into ten minute segments. Here it is in its entirety, as preached for the Commerce church of Christ in their ’08 Gospel Meeting. Let me know what you think.
Are People Baptized In The Holy Spirit Today? from Norm Fields on Vimeo.
In His Service,
Norm
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This was on the old web site before I upgraded to Thesis for WordPress. Thanks for the “nudge” to get it back on the new web site.
In His Service,
Norm
1 Corinthians 2:14
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
DOES IT SAY “INTELLECTUALLY DISCERNED” OR “SPIRITUALLY APPRAISED” “BY READING THE WORD?
DEFINE “Spiritually appraised”?
The context of 1 Cor. 2:14 is not talking about the reader of the text but the revealer. Paul is showing that what he wrote and taught was not from man’s wisdom but was rather from the Holy Spirit and, therefore, God’s wisdom (1 Cor. 2:13-16). Spiritual and natural in the context is referring to inspired and uninspired. Paul could not be saying here that miraculous guidance from the Holy Spirit is necessary to understand the word because that would contradict what he told the Ephesians about how to understand the mystery of Christ (Eph. 3:4). To say that one needs to the Holy Spirit to understand the word of God is to blame God for people’s rejection of it. If the Holy Spirit enables some to understand the word and not others then he is a respecter of persons (Rom. 2:11; Acts 10:34-35) and to blame for people being lost (1 Tim. 2:3-5).
So what you are saying is that it CANNOT say what it IN FACT DOES SAY, because that would clearly blow up your entire belief system. The “natural man does not”, “he cannot” is the subject. Exactly when does it shift from the reader to the revealer. What convoluted twisted logic! If it referred to the revealer it would say spiritually “inspired”; as opposed to what it does say “spiritually appraised” or “discerned”. Maybe you should look at the scripture as it clearly is; instead of mis-interpreting it to fit your errant theological mindset!
Steve,
The problem is not Norm holding to an errant theological mindset, it is in fact you and all denominationalists who have that mindset. Maybe you have chosen to have the mindset, or maybe you have just ignorantly accepted it without having searched it out for yourself. In either case, you do greatly err, not knowing the Scriptures, or how to properly harmonize them.
You haven’t yet said, but by your argument it appears that you are of the Calvinist clan. Please correct me if I am wrong, and I will apologize.
To understand the New Testament you must first know that you are reading other peoples mail. The New Testament is made up of the letters, that were sent to certain brethren, or congregations, and then distributed among Christians of the first century. These letters were written to discuss particular problems that the first century Christians (and many of them babes in Christ) were facing. First and Second Corinthians were written to combat the false teaching of Judizing teachers who had come behind Paul and tried to confuse the young Christians with added requirements, as well as telling them that Paul was not an authorized gospel teacher.
In chapter two of 1 Cor. Paul deals with this problem, by comparing his preaching (truth) against their teaching (error). which is what you find in verse 13 and following. Paul tells them that he did not teach his own brand of the gospel as these Judiazers were, but he taught only that which the Holy Spirit gave him to teach. Verse 14 is referring to these false teachers, who would rather continue believing that the Law of Moses was in effect. They refused to believe the words of Christ, to them it was foolishness!
“The natural man” stands opposed to the “spiritual man”
The natural man refers to one who governed or influenced by mans wisdom, by philosophies, by worldly thinking, and not by God.
I must agree with Norm that only the Spirit of God can “reveal” spiritual things. The context shows that Paul is comparing himself with the false teachers among the Corinthians. It shows that they would rather hear themselves and others that agree with them, rather than submit to the Spirit of God, the revealer of the truth.
I’m not sure what you are talking concerning a ‘reader.’
hope this helps.
In the spirit of forgiveness, I’ll excuse your breach of etiquette, and you may please excuse my spiritual limitations as a denomonationlist; and allow me to make sure that I understand what you are saying. It certainly appears that you are claiming that there only exists 2 types of “man” in the world – “natural” and “spiritual” – I can certainly agree with that. You have a natural man who is trapped by worldly wisdom and philosophies, one who governed by worldly thinking, and not by God. You might just say that the natural man is “dead in his trespasses and sin” (Eph 2:1).
But on the other hand, the spiritual man is the only one who can understand the “spiritual” things of God; he only can understand spiritual poverty without Christ (Matt 5:3); he alone can understand the sinfulness of sin (Matt 5:4); and the ultimate need for repentence of sin – wow…I can’t think of greater “spiritual things or needs.”
So just tell me how the natual man, the one who is graveyard dead spiritually (Eph 2:1) can make a decision for Christ? Does he have just enough un-natural wisdom….or just enough pre-spiritual sensitivity to somehow recognize his spiritual povery, his alienation from God because of sin, his need for repentence. Or, are you going to tell me (as I always heard growing up in your denomination…oops…I mean the one true Church, Romans 16:16) that he was “quickened” or “pricked in his heart” and that is what moves the “natural man” to repentence. If so, just tell me who did the quickening or pricking? And please don’t tell me as others have tried to do that it was “the WORD” that picked the heart; for my answer to that is as it is written in John 1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word WAS GOD.
Ephesians 2:1 (KJV)
And you hath He quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;…..
What a blasphemous inconsistency to interpret Holy scripture to suit your errant and preconceived doctrine and mindset; and it is equally blasphemous to rob God of His glory and espouse the kind of perverted scheme of redemption that you and Norm put forth!
I guess there is no point in going any further, since you don’t want to hear the truth. You don’t want to hear what the Word/Revelation of God teaches. There is no inconsistency in what is taught by the Word/Revelation of God. Neither Norm, nor I have twisted any passages to “make” them say something they do not. They speak for themselves to the honest hearer.
I guess what I was trying to say before, was that like the Judiazing teachers in Corinth, who would not listen to reason, who only wanted to heed the tradition they had so long been a part of, is that this is where men and women of denominations find themselves. Hung up on the philosophies and theories of men, rather than the saving power of the gospel of Christ (Romans 1:16). I’m sorry, I apologize for throwing a “Word” Scripture in there.
Since God has given to everyone of us the power to choose right or wrong, truth or error, serving God or serving Satan, then those same Judiazers whom Paul said saw the “Word/Gospel/Revelation” as foolishness, could just as easily softened their hearts to accept it and obey it. It was their choice, just as much as it is your choice, my choice and Norm’s choice.
What was it that “pricked the hearts” of the Jews on Pentecost? Please tell me – (1) Was it a miraculous tweaking of the Holy Spirit? (2) Was it a sinners prayer? (3) Was it simply accepting Christ as savior? What was it that pricked their hearts? Please, tell us.
I can tell you right now what it was – and that it was none of those things named. Acts 2:36 gives us the answer – but it is an answer that your doctrine won’t allow – “now when they HEARD this, they were pricked in their heart…” HEARD WHAT? The sound of the Holy Spirit coming upon them? No, it was the “Words” the “Gospel” that was preached to them that they heard, and what pricked their heart! Now that wasn’t so hard to understand was it?
Luke, who wrote Acts, informs us that the “Word” the “Gospel” is what saves us in Luke 8:11-15. There we find a parable of the seed and sower. Jesus said that the “seed” is representative of the “Word of God” – the Gospel – the Revelation of God to mankind. this Word is sown in the hearts of men, men who have hearts like the differing soils – Wayside soil, Rocky soil, Thorny soil and Good soil. The natural man is the Wayside soil, he hears the “Word” but before it can save him, the Devil snathes it out of his heart before he is able to believe the Word and be saved. The other three soils are those of the Jews whose heart was “pricked” by the Word. We don’t know how many are which soil, but from this parable we find that it is possible to lose your salvation – something I’m sure that you will not agree with. But something that is Scripturally based.
I guess that your problem is that you are unable to discern between the Man “The Word” and the written “Word.” Which is why you had to go to John 1 to make your point. There is a difference, is there not?
You are most certainly right about one thing – there is no need to go any further.
I’m sorry that you feel that way. But like liberals in all arenas, Political and Religious, then their arguments fail them, they must cease. Thanks for your comments.
Your sorry I feel what way? Take a look at your previous response – “I guess there is no point in going any further, since you don’t want to hear the truth.” I think we have a black kettle dilemma.
As for my argument failing me, I have a clear comprehensive view of scripture that delivers me the overall message of the gospel – salvation by Grace lest any man boast. I did not focus and hold to the particular at the expense of the general message, by fixating on Acts 2:38, Romans 16:16, and Eph. 5:19 and build out from there a legalist belief system that the Pharisee would cheer and embrace. Where you miss the message, as you believe that you “made a decision for Christ” as opposed to “recieving the free gift” is this: you are not saved by putting Your Faith in Christ, but rather is is Christ who save through faith. It’s clearly no wonder that you believe salvation can be lost when you are confused relative to how salvation is found – if you decide for Christ then it just naturally presupposes that you can make another decision. Not if you recieved it instead – “I will never forsake you or leave you.”
If you’d like the last word again – go ahead – I am no longer amazed at the futility of this type of endeavor with those in your denomination.
Steve,
In relation to your last post, Romans 8:1 – my question is how does one get into Christ? Please give us a passage that states that a person gets into Christ through faith alone. Or an example of someone converted through faith alone.
I agree that there is no condemnation for anyone who is found “In Christ,” but there is only one way to be located there. Secondly, where would that location be found? If you are “In Christ” where are you?