Question #3: What If I Died Before I Could Get To The Water For Baptism?
It matters not one whit how I feel about something as to whether it is sound doctrine or not. How does the fact that the vast majority of the human population, from creation to judgment day, being lost make me feel? (Matt. 7:13, 14). Not good! Does that affect the truth of it at all? No! Likewise, how I feel about someone dying before they make it to the water, terrible as it is, has no affect whatsoever on the biblical teaching of baptism.
This is a very common question raised by those who are trying to find any way around the necessity of baptism that they can. I usually ask a question in response; “How old where they?” This brings the discussion back to facts and out of emotional appeals to abandon the word. “Well, what difference does that make?” The difference it makes is that the person is implying, from their “question,” that it would be God’s fault the person was lost. That is, if baptism is essential to salvation, and the person dies before they could be baptized, then it would be God’s fault they were lost. So, I ask, “how old were they?” No matter what the person says, though they usually say elderly, I will say that the person had “x” number of years to obey the gospel before they died and they didn’t. So, say a person of 50 dies on the way to the water and someone says, “well they wanted to get baptized so they are saved.” That means, according to the person’s reasoning, they are saved because they made a “last minute” decision to be baptized after a lifetime of disobedience. No, my response is, if they died on the way to the baptistry then they waited too late to decide to obey the gospel.
Let me ask some questions from biblical examples and see what the answer would be. If Naaman had died on his way to the Jordan would he have died a leper? (2 Kings 5:8-14). If the blind man died before washing in Siloam would he have died blind? (John 9:6-7). In both of these examples, among many, it clearly states that they were healed after they obeyed. No one would look at examples like these and say that if they died before they obeyed that they would have died anything other than what they were at the time of their death. When it comes to baptism for the remission of sins there is no apparent physical condition being healed. It is a spiritual condition that is being treated. However, the same principle of blessing after obedience, not before, is true.
In Romans 6:3-5, Paul says,
Some try to use the thief on the cross as an example of one being saved without baptism (Luke 23:39-42).
Here again, I like to ask some questions in return to such an attempt. I ask, “what did Jesus say to the thief?” Without fail they always reply with the text, “To day shalt thou be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43). Then I simply ask, “OK, what did the thief say to Jesus?” And it is very rare if the person can tell me. It seems to me that, if a person is going to base their salvation on the example of the thief, they would be very clear on what happened there.
The fact is, when a person uses the thief on the cross for an example of one being saved without baptism, they are making a supposition with no basis in fact and with no supporting evidence whatsoever. Now let me be very clear, it doesn’t matter whether the thief had been baptized or not. Jesus had power on earth to forgive sins (Matthew 9:6). However, Jesus is not on earth forgiving sin today. He is in heaven at the right hand of God (Hebrews 1:3). The only way to be saved today is by giving obedience to Christ through his word (Hebrews 5:9; 1 Peter 1:23-25). With that said, when we examine the evidence of the thief on the cross, there is more reason to believe that he had been baptized than to believe that he had not.
The reason I ask what the thief said to Jesus is this, it shows that he did not just come to his faith while on the cross. He was a person who knew who and what Jesus was. The way he addressed Jesus and his knowledge about what Jesus would do demonstrate that he was either a follower of Christ who had fallen away into thievery; or, a thief who had heard and obeyed and was suffering the consequences of thievery committed prior to his repentance. Whatever the case my be, it cannot be that he was just encountering Jesus for the first time there on the cross. Notice:
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The thief called Jesus “Lord” – a term used by Jesus’ disciples. At what point in the course of his being crucified and hanging on the cross would the thief have heard and/or seen any evidence that Jesus was Lord? He would have already had to have known this.
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The thief asked Jesus to “remember” him. Why would the thief have expected Jesus to be able to “remember” him? Jesus was in the same condition the thief was, they were both dying on a cross! If the thief was just encountering Jesus for the first time on the cross when would he have heard anything about Jesus being raised from the dead? And, even if he had, what evidence would he have seen during the crucifixion to cause him to believe it? Clearly, the thief had already learned that the Christ would rise from the dead and, thus, could “remember” the thief after they both died on the cross.
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The thief knew Jesus would have a kingdom. If he was just encountering Jesus for the first time on the cross, when would he have learned anything about the kingdom? Why would he be expecting a dying man to come into a kingdom? Clearly, he had already heard the teaching of Christ and his kingdom prior to being on the cross.
When we see this very clear evidence of the thief’s prior knowledge of who and what Jesus was, it becomes a very strong likelihood that he had been baptized. Notice, “Jerusalem, and all Judaea” went out to be baptized by John in the Jordan (Matt. 3:5, 6). Of course, this doesn’t literally mean that every single individual in this region was baptized. It is hyperbole to emphasize the very large numbers of people who were being baptized. But; even though John was baptizing so many people that it was said he baptized “Jerusalem, and all Judaea;” the disciples of Christ baptized even more than John did! (John 4:1, 2). There were a lot of people being baptized!
Also, those who were being baptized were being told to produce “fruits worthy of repentance” (Luke 3:8). So, how exactly would a thief, converted by the preaching of John and/or Jesus, bare “fruits worthy of repentance”? He would certainly have to stop being a thief! He would also have to make restitution for his thievery. It very well may be that the thief was on the cross because he had repented and been baptized.
Now, I have presented a supposition also – I believe the thief was baptized. The other side presents their supposition – that the thief was not baptized. Neither supposition can be stated as a matter of doctrine because the Bible simply doesn’t say. However, a supposition is only as good as the supporting evidence. Which supposition has the weight of evidence and which not only has no evidence but actually contradicts the known facts?
Is the thief on the cross an example of one who was saved without baptism? No, he is not! He is an example of one who confessed faith in the Lord and was saved by the Lord. Whether he was baptized or not is irrelevant. Not only because the Lord forgave him while he was still on earth but also because the thief died before Christ established his church and added those who were baptized to it (Matthew 28:19; Acts 2:38, 41, 47).
Let’s make application of the thief to the question at hand. What if the thief had died before he asked the Lord to remember him in paradise? What if he really wanted to say it but died before he could? What then? At what point will a person say that one died before doing what was necessary to be saved?
What if a person died in the process of having a Bible study before they heard the word to believe? (Romans 10:17). Could they be saved without believing, even though they would have if they had the time to study before dying? Or, if they had studied but had not yet confessed Christ? (Romans 10:9, 10). Maybe they were on their way to confess Christ but died before they could. What then? The Bible says a person must hear the word (Romans 10:17; Hebrews 11:6), believe what it says about Christ and his kingdom (John 8:24; Acts 8:12), repent of your sins (Acts 2:38; 17:30), confess faith in Christ (Romans 10:9, 10), and be baptized for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38; 22:16), in order to be saved. So, at what point in the process did God not mean what he said? Did he say that a person who believes and is baptized would be saved (Mark 16:16) but really only mean that a person has to be believe to be saved?
I have heard deceitful denominational teachers use the Philippian jailor as an example of one being told that faith only would save him. This is a deceitful and satanic use of Scripture! Every time a denominational preacher quotes Acts 16:31 to say that faith only is the means of salvation they are twisting the Scripture to their own destruction (2 Peter 3:16). When they stop at verse 31 with their “plan of salvation” they have stopped before the jailor had even heard the word of God so that he could believe in Christ (Acts 16:32; Romans 10:17). They stop before the jailor repented of his part in persecuting God’s servants (Acts 16:33; 17:30). They stop before the jailor was baptized into Christ for the remission of his sins (Acts 16:33; Galatians 3:26, 27; Romans 6:3-5). They stop before the jailor was rejoicing in his salvation (Acts 16:34; 8:37-39). Notice, it doesn’t even say that the jailor had done what Paul told him he needed to do to be saved until verse 34, after he had been baptized! Paul told him to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (31), then preached Christ to him (32), the jailor believed, repented and was baptized (33), and then it says he was a believer (34). I would to God that denominationalists would stop abusing this beautiful passage!
Let’s make application of the jailor to the question at hand. At what point during the process could the jailor have died a saved man? What if he died when he originally planned to kill himself? (Acts 16:27). He was obviously one who would obey the gospel given the chance. So, if he had fallen on his sword before having the chance to obey would he have been saved? He had not even heard the gospel yet! (Romans 1:16). When had he obeyed the doctrine of Christ for salvation? Not until he had been baptized into Christ!
It is not a pleasant thought, to think of one dying before they obey the gospel. But bad feelings about someone’s death won’t save them! Only obedience to Christ can save. And it cannot be said that a person has obeyed until they have been baptized. As unpleasant as it may sound, if a person dies “on the way to the water” then they waited too late to obey.
{ 46 comments… read them below or add one }
Good Biblical Answer.
Norm ….. this is ridiculous. Friends this is so very false and it causes my heart sadness to read. “As unpleasant as it may sound, if a person dies “on the way to the water” then they waited too late to obey.” this is false to anyone reading. Please know its false. If the God I serve is not strong enough to save my soul without my works then I want no part of him! but I know the God I serve is strong enough that his blood can save me and not water. I need not say more here due to the fact that I have already commented on earlier ones dealing with baptism. This conclusion Bro. Norm gives is ridiculous and unbiblical.
~God Bless~
Kyle,
You say that the answer I gave from the Bible, with an abundance of Scripture, is “so very false.” You just keep repeating how false it is, however, you give no Scriptural evidence that it is false. You give no examples of where people were saved before they obeyed the word of God. You give no examples of where I have used any passages out of context or incorrectly. You just keep saying how “very false” it is.
Kyle, your refusal to accept something as biblical truth isn’t sufficient proof that it is false! It “causes my heart sadness” to know that people have rejected the plain truth of God’s word, though they had much opportunity and exhortation to obey.
You say that if God will not save you on your terms then you want no part of him, and that is true. You have decided how you think God should save, regardless of how he said he will save. Now you expect God to bow to your will instead of you humbly submitting to him.
If this answer is “so very false” all you have to do is show some examples in the Bible where people were saved because of their “intention” to obey prior to their actual obedience. Can you show such an example? You cannot!
Please, I beseech you on Christ’s behalf, obey the gospel and be saved (Rom. 10:17; Heb. 11:6; Mark 16:16; John 8:24; Acts 2:38; Luke 13:3, 5; Acts 17:30; Rom. 10:9, 10; Acts 8:37; Acts 8:38; Acts 16:32, 33; 22:16; 1 Pet. 3:21).
If baptism saves us then why does the Bible tell us its not by works we are saved? (Eph. 2:8) is the Bible contradicting upon itself? I do not think so. I believe on must examine further the scriptures Norm has provided. in other words , Acts 2:38 , 1 Peter 3:21 , Mark 16:16 are used out of context and without consideration of surrounding verses to support an extremely dangerous and false claim. Allow me to take a moment to explain one or two of these verses to show what I mean. So , is it our works? we must understand that man in no way , shape , form , or fashion plays a part in God saving his soul through his good merit , after all … then would it be a supernatural act? is it works? This is perhaps the most important question in all of Christian theology. This question is the cause of the Reformation, the split between the Protestant churches and Catholic Church. This question is a key difference between biblical Christianity and most of the “Christian” cults. Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works? Am I saved just by believing in Jesus, or do I have to believe in Jesus and do certain things?
The question of faith alone or faith plus works is made difficult by some hard-to-reconcile Bible passages. Compare Romans 3:28, 5:1 and Galatians 3:24 with James 2:24. Some see a difference between Paul (salvation is by faith alone) and James (salvation is by faith plus works). Paul dogmatically says that justification is by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9), while James appears to be saying that justification is by faith plus works. This apparent problem is answered by examining what exactly James is talking about. James is refuting the belief that a person can have faith without producing any good works (James 2:17-18). James is emphasizing the point that genuine faith in Christ will produce a changed life and good works (James 2:20-26). James is not saying that justification is by faith plus works, but rather that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his/her life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his/her life, then he/she likely does not have genuine faith in Christ (James 2:14, 17, 20, 26).
Paul says the same thing in his writings. The good fruit believers should have in their lives is listed in Galatians 5:22-23. Immediately after telling us that we are saved by faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9), Paul informs us that we were created to do good works (Ephesians 2:10). Paul expects just as much of a changed life as James does: “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come” (2 Corinthians 5:17). James and Paul do not disagree in their teaching regarding salvation. They approach the same subject from different perspectives. Paul simply emphasized that justification is by faith alone while James put emphasis on the fact that genuine faith in Christ produces good works. Norm , if you allow I would be more than glad to more in depth explain some of the scriptures you have posed in your previous reply.
~ God Bless~
I just want to comment briefly on some of your statements. When the reader sees that your comments misrepresent that actual biblical text it will be enough said.
First, you use Ephesians 2:8 as a prooftext for your “faith-only” plan of salvation. However, Ephesians 2:8 is in a letter written to people who had been baptized. Not only had they been baptized but they had been baptized twice to make sure their baptism was scriptural.
Not only was it written to people who had been baptized, it was written by someone who had been baptized “to wash away” his sins.
Next, you cite three biblical passages that clearly state the necessity of baptism for salvation and say that they don’t mean what they say. Acts 2:38 says baptism is “for the remission of sins.” 1 Peter 3:21 says baptism “does now save us.” Mark 16:16 says the one who believes and is baptized “shall be saved.” But you say that is not what they mean. I think I’ll take God at his word and let you shout at the waves.
Then you claim that Paul “dogmatically” taught justification by “faith alone” and again give Ephesians 2:8-9 as your prooftext. Here is what Ephesians 2:8-9 says, find where Paul says “faith alone” if you can.
This passage says that by God’s grace we have access to salvation through faith. We cannot merit our own salvation by any virtue on our part. It is only by God’s grace that we have a means of salvation. It is not possible for man to come up with another way to be saved aside from the plan that God has given – the sacrifice of his Son on the cross. Many ancient manuscripts have “the faith,” which would be the same thing as saying that salvation comes through, or by means of, the gospel (cf. 1 Peter 1:22, 23; 1 Cor. 4:15; James 1:18; et. al.)
I challenge the reader to do a concordial search for the term you say Paul taught dogmatically “faith alone.” It will only appear one time in the entire Bible. Here it is.
Lets take a moment and break down this previous comment.
1. You stated ” Ephesians 2:8 is in a letter written to people who had been baptized. Not only had they been baptized but they had been baptized twice to make sure their baptism was scriptural.” I totally agree with ya here… but just because it was written to those who have been baptized does not make much for a stance there. They were baptized but Paul was making sure they know it wasnt that baptism nor was it there works! its all Jesus works (thus why i trust him and not water my friend)
2.You stated : “You cite three biblical passages that clearly state the necessity of baptism for salvation and say that they don’t mean what they say. Acts 2:38 says baptism is “for the remission of sins.” 1 Peter 3:21 says baptism “does now save us.” Mark 16:16 says the one who believes and is baptized “shall be saved.” But you say that is not what they mean. I think I’ll take God at his word and let you shout at the waves.”
So , Norm … have you sold all possesions and given it to the poor? IE : car , home , cell phone , clothes… after all thats what the scripture says.
- ” “…whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.” (Luke 14:33 )
- ” sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.” (Luke 18:22)
Its what the Bible says … so I will leave you to “SHOUT AT THE WAVES” =) ACTUALLY Norm , you will say that there is a correct interpretation and meaning to this but ya know…. I can also tell you that there is a correct interpretation to Acts 2;38 , mark 16:16 … and so on. Hey must we sell all?? or is it deeper..??
3. You stated : ” This passage says that by God’s grace we have access to salvation through faith. We cannot merit our own salvation by any virtue on our part. It is only by God’s grace that we have a means of salvation. It is not possible for man to come up with another way to be saved aside from the plan that God has given – the sacrifice of his Son on the cross”
— First , this passage does NOT say by God’s grace we have access to a plan … thats not there , it does say however that BY GRACE ARE YE SAVED …. thats what the words say my friend. Second , this is not speaking if virtue … its speaking of works thus why Paul said works! dont try to reword to make it seem better. Also , it doesnt matter how many times faith only appears in the Bible … its there and God never made a minimum amount of how mnay times one thing must appear for it to be in effect. Norm, your arguments do not hold up and prove to be very faulty. I ask your permission to allow me to please post my explanation of your so called ‘proof text’ to baptismal regenration …. is this ok? ..
~ God Bless~
I didn’t say “just because they had been baptized twice” that my argument would stand or fall on that alone. I gave many passages stating the necessity of baptism and pointed out that the very ones you try to use as examples of being saved without baptism had, in fact, been baptized.
It is true that we need to examine the context of a passage to make sure it is being used correctly. Like the passages you cite for not allowing anything to stand between us and Christ. We must be willing to forsake anything and everything that hinders us from following Him. I challenge you to show where I have used any of the baptism passages out of context. I challenge you to demonstrate that those very clear passages don’t mean exactly what they say. How does “he who believes and is baptized shall be saved” not mean that he who believes and is baptized shall be saved? How does baptism “doth now save us” not mean that baptism doth now save us? How does baptism “for the remission of sins” not mean that baptism is for the remission of sins? How does “arise and be baptized and wash away your sins” not mean that baptism washes away your sins? Explain it if you can!
My reference to Ephesians 2:8 referring to the plan God gave for our salvation is based on several points of fact. The biblical description of what that grace is, for one. Titus 2:11 says that the “grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us….” I have already shown that it is the Gospel that is God’s power to save (Rom. 1:16; 1 Cor. 4:15; James 1:18; 1 Pet. 1:22, 23; et. al.). The Gospel of Christ is also the means by which we are taught how to be Christians (1 Cor. 15:1-4; 1:21; Rom. 10:14-17). It is the Gospel of Christ that “hath appeared to all men,” as Paul revealed in Colossians 1:23 and Christ had prophesied would take place prior to AD70 (Matthew 24:14). So when Paul says that “by grace you have been saved,” the grace referred to is the Gospel of Jesus Christ – the plan God gave to give us access to salvation.
I also pointed out that there is a great deal of evidence to support the fact that it should be “through the faith” instead of “through faith.” The inclusion of the definite article is not essential to a proper understanding but it is clarifying. “The faith” is a common term for the Gospel (Jude 3; Acts 6:7; 24:24; Rom. 1:5; 16:26; 1 Cor. 16:13; 2 Cor. 13:5; Eph. 4:13; Col. 1:23; 2:7; 1 Tim. 4:1; 2 Tim. 4:7; Titus 1:13).
All of this is important to the proper understanding of the passage. God’s grace – his free gift – is the plan of salvation, therefore, “by grace are ye saved through faith” means that by God’s unmerited favor we are able to be saved by means of obedience to the gospel. This understanding is in complete and total harmony with everything the Bible says about salvation.
I’m sure the reader will not be able to overlook the fact that you even misquote your sugar stick passage. It doesn’t say that “by grace are ye saved,” it says that “by grace are ye saved through faith.” Or, more accurately still, “by grace are ye saved through [the] faith.”
I have already told you that I am very happy to discuss this issue with you. I am happy to have it posted to the blog so that all can read your attempts to twist the Scripture. I pray that your comments here will help people see their way clear of your Calvinistic false doctrine. However, I will not be posting your article submissions to my blog. It is ridiculous for you to expect me to do so. You are free to make whatever comments you wish to make of a reasonable length, not a 2,000 word article. If you, or anyone else, want to submit a manuscript for debate you can email it to me and I will consider a debate like that I have posted with Mr. Warner on Premillennialism. But I will not accept manuscript length comments.
I hope you will continue this line of comments because I think it is very useful for the honest reader to see the truth in the discussion.
Thanks,
Norm
I feel that your use of the scripture in many instances need to be looked at carefully. I will step up to the task of explaining a few of the scriptures. See , you gave an explanation of “selling all to follow Christ” but Norm , it simply says sell all to follow Christ …. thats just what it says and if we are to interpret just as you say we are on Acts 2:38 , 1 Peter 3 then we obviously should sell all to follow Him. However , Christ has not left us in the dark on this issue. It was never God’s intention to make a man work for his salvation its all about what he DID and not what we can DO. To anyone reading please know that it is faith and NOTHING else that brings your salvation. FAITH FAITH FAITH and after this faith in Jesus Christ THEN you will produce these good works and bring forth fruit ( Titus 3:8) we have to understand that if we are trusting in our works we will die and go to hell. If we trust in the FINISHED work of Calvary then we ar eof Christ. Let us examine in a more full view the aspect of each “scriptural proof” given on part to provide proof of baptismal regeneration. One will note that along with many of the occult groups which formed in the 19th century the teaching of baptismal regenration came along (Mormons , Jehovas Witness .. and yes even Church of Christ) let us further our study by explantion of God’s Word.
Acts 2:38 – Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. First, please notice that verse 38 isn’t the only verse in Acts 2. In Peter’s message, a great deal was said before verse 38 came out of his mouth. In fact, he even told his listeners how to be saved before verse 38! In Acts 2:21, Peter quotes from Joel 2 and says, “And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” His words preceding verse 38 were so convicting that his listeners were “pricked in their heart” in verse 37. So, to use verse 38 out of its context causes a misrepresentation of God’s word. The verse does not stand alone, and, in fact, a totally different meaning is conveyed when one makes it stand alone.
Another error that many make with Acts 2:38 is the error of assumption. It is assumed that the word “for” must mean “in order to get.” That is, being baptized “for” the remission of sins supposedly means to be baptized “in order to get” remission of sins. However, a closer look at the scriptures will reveal that this isn’t the case at all.
Notice Luke 5:12-14: “And it came to pass, when he was in a certain city, behold a man full of leprosy: who seeing Jesus fell on his face, and besought him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean. And he put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will: be thou clean. And immediately the leprosy departed from him. And he charged him to tell no man: but go, and shew thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing, according as Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.” Jesus made this man clean in verse 13, yet in the next verse, verse 14, Jesus tells him to go offer a sacrifice “for thy cleansing” as a “testimony.” Here the word “for” cannot mean “in order to get” because he had already gotten his cleansing in verse 13! It obviously meant “because of” his cleansing. If a man goes to jail “for stealing,” then he goes there “because of” the stealing that he’s already done, not “in order to get” a chance to steal again.
Some like to argue that the Greek word “eis” means “in order to,” but this isn’t always the case. Jesus said in Matthew 12:41, “The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at (eis) the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.” The Greek word for “at” is “eis.” Does this mean that the men of Nineveh repented “in order to get” the preaching of Jonah? No, they repented “because of” the preaching of Jonah. So, even “the Greek” doesn’t demand the popular interpretation of Acts 2:38. The word “for” can be used different ways, not just one, so it is wrong to assume that it must mean “in order to get” in Acts 2:38.
Another factor which is commonly ignored is the JEWISH factor. Every person in Acts 2 is a Mosaic law observing Old Testament Jew. In fact, they are all gathered together to observe a JEWISH FEAST called Pentecost (verse 1). A fair reading of the whole chapter (especially verses 4, 14, and 36) will clearly reveal that no Gentiles (non Jews) are present. Since this involves Jews, it involves a NATION (verse 36!!), not individuals. No one asked, “What must I do to be saved?” The question asked concerned the NATION of Israel: “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” (verse 37) Not, “What shall I do,” but rather, “What shall WE do?” Acts 2 presents a NATION of people who come to realize that they have murdered their blessed Messiah and they’re asking what THEY must do. It’s a question concerning NATIONAL salvation. Isaiah 66:8 says, “. . . shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.” The “nation” is Israel! Romans 11:26 says, “And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.” Acts 2:38 is dealing with NATIONAL salvation. The Messianic Kingdom is still available to the Jews (until Acts 7:60 when they kill Stephen), so national salvation remains an issue until then.
This is clear from what follows Acts 7. In Acts 8, an individual from Africa is saved (before baptism). In Acts 9, an individual from Asia is saved (before baptism). In Acts 10, an individual from Europe is saved (before baptism). Why didn’t these individual conversions occur before Acts 7? Because the first seven chapter of Acts deal with Israel (1:6-8; 2:36; 3:12; 4:8-10; 5:31; 6:7-14; 7:1-60). The question of INDIVIDUAL salvation is asked and answered in Acts 16:30-31: “. . . Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.” Those who fail to make this distinction are guilty of violating II Timothy 2:15 where we are told to RIGHTLY DIVIDE the word of truth.
The Bible says the gospel is to go to the Jew FIRST (Rom. 1:16), so they are the FIRST to receive the gospel in the book of Acts (chapter 2), but they are not the last to receive it. Acts doesn’t end with chapter 2, so we should be cautious of anyone who develops their doctrine in Acts 2 while practically ignoring the next 26 chapters! If God didn’t stop in Acts 2, then why does anyone else? Could it be that the later chapters in Acts contain information which the cultists want hidden from us? Could it be that there are other scriptures in Acts which do not agree with the wording of Acts 2:38? Could it be that Peter himself, the one preaching in Acts 2:38, says something different when speaking to individual Gentiles like you and me? One only has to read Acts chapter 10 to get the answer. Peter is preaching again in Acts 10, except only to individual Gentiles, and something very interesting occurs. In Acts 2:38, the Holy Ghost was promised to be given to the converts AFTER they were baptized, yet in Acts 10:44 the Holy Ghost falls upon the Gentiles BEFORE they are baptized! Now, Paul tells us in Romans 8:9, ” . . .if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.” Having God’s Spirit is synonymous with belonging to God or being saved (John 3:6-8), so the Gentiles in Acts 10 were saved BEFORE they were baptized in water. Why don’t the Acts 2:38 cultists ever point this out? Answer: It destroys their perverted doctrine that water baptism is essential for salvation.
I will leave with explaining one more verse as to not be accused of leaving an article.
Acts 22:16 – And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. Let us examine the context of the scripture and even further our study. As with any single verse or passage, we discern what it teaches by first filtering it through what we know the Bible teaches on the subject at hand. In the case of baptism and salvation, the Bible is clear that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works of any kind, including baptism (Ephesians 2:8-9). So, any interpretation which comes to the conclusion that baptism, or any other act, is necessary for salvation, is a faulty interpretation. For more information, please visit our webpage on “Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works?”
Acts 22:16, “And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.” The first question that must be answered is “when was Paul saved?” 1. Paul tells that he did not receive or hear the Gospel from Ananias, but rather he heard it directly from Christ. Galatians 1:11-12 says, “For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.” So, Paul heard and believed in Christ on the road to Damascus. Paul had already believed in Christ when Ananias came to pray for him to receive his sight (Acts 9:17).
2. It also should be noted that Paul at the time when Ananias prayed for him to receive his sight, he also received the Holy Spirit (Acts 9:17)–this was before he was baptized (Acts 9:18). Acts presents a transition period where God’s focus turns from Israel to the Church. The events recorded in Acts are not always normative. With regard to receiving the Holy Spirit, the norm is that a person receives and is permanently indwelt by the Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation.
3. The Greek aorist participle, epikalesamenos, translated “calling on His name” refers either to action that is simultaneous with or before that of the main verb, “be baptized.” Here Paul’s calling on Christ’s name for salvation preceded his water baptism. The participle may be translated “having called on His name” which makes more sense, as it would clearly indicate the order of the events.
4. Concerning the words, “be baptized, and wash away your sins,” because Paul was already cleansed spiritually at the time Christ appeared to him, these words must refer to the symbolism of baptism. Baptism is a picture of God’s inner work of washing away sin (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 Peter 3:21).
5. It is also interesting that when Paul recounted this event again later in Acts (Acts 26:12-18), he did not mention Ananias or what Ananias said to him at all. Verse 18 again would confirm the idea that Paul received Christ as Savior on the road to Damascus since here Christ is telling Paul he will be a messenger for Him concerning forgiveness of sins for Gentiles as they have faith in Him. It would seem unlikely that Christ would commission Paul if Paul had not yet believed in Him.
I hope any trusting in there works will realize the necessity of the blood and not the water.
” What can wash away my sin? nothing but the water of the baptistry. What can make me whole again ? nothing but the water of the baptistry. Norm , is this how your church sings it? absolutely not. Why? because even as the songwriter penned down those words he knew it was NOTHING bu his faith through the blood of Jesus Christ. Norm , I am not calvinistic I am a Biblical follower of Jesus Christ. I need no label. I am a follower of HIM.
Thanks ,
Kyle.
Kyle takes it upon himself to decide what is and what is not a work necessary for salvation. He says it is all about “faith, faith, faith and after this faith….” But then he says a person doesn’t have to do anything to be saved! Well, either a person has to have faith or they don’t, which is it? If they must have faith in order to be saved then there is something that they have to do. Is this a work necessary for salvation? Jesus says it is.
So Jesus says that faith itself is a work that we must do. And before Kyle says that it is something God does I would have him notice that the people asked “what shall we do, that we might work the works of God?” They asked what they had to do not what God would do. In answer Jesus told them to believe in him.” Kyle says “faith, faith, faith – not works.” But faith is a work, it is the work of God that we must do. Who decided that baptism was a work of merit that would give us the right to say we earned our salvation? Are you going to tell me that submitting to God’s will in baptism somehow earns the death of Christ on the cross? Ridiculous!
If it is “faith, faith, faith” where does that faith come from? Next Kyle will say that a person can be saved without even hearing the Gospel of Christ. Romans 10:17 says “faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” So does someone have to hear the word of God before they can be saved? Is hearing the word of God a work of merit or an act of obedience to God? Hebrews 11:6 says it is impossible to please God without faith and Romans 10:17 says faith comes by hearing the word of God. So isn’t that two things a person has to do before they can be saved? They must hear and believe – they must do it!
What about repentance? Who must do that? God? Does God have to do the work of repenting or do we have to repent before we can be saved? Will Kyle say that repentance is not necessary for salvation? Acts 17:30, 31 says that God commands all men everywhere to repent because the day of judgment is coming. To be prepared for the day a judgement a person has to have repented of a lifestyle contrary to God’s will. Kyle says “faith, faith, faith.” But the Bible says hear, believe and repent. Which one of those can be left out Kyle?
What about confessing Christ? Does a person have to confess that they believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God in order to be saved, Kyle? The Bible says confession is “unto salvation” (Romans 10:10). Jesus said if we do not confess him before men then he would not confess us before the Father (Matthew 10:32, 33). Before Philip would baptize the Ethiopian eunuch he had to hear his confession that he believed Jesus Christ to be the Son of God (Acts 8:35-38). So, what do you say Kyle? Does a person have to confess Christ or not? Is that something that they have to do or that God does for them?
Kyle says “faith, faith, faith.” The Bible says hear, believe, repent and confess. Now which of these is not necessary for salvation? Which one can we choose to leave out? If a person must do these things to be saved then does that mean we somehow “earn” or “merit” the death of Christ on the cross. How absurd! These are all works of faithful obedience not in any way meritorious works that somehow makes us “deserving” of the Savior’s blood!
So why is it, if we have not done any works of merit up to the point of confessing Christ, does it all the sudden become a meritorious work to be baptized into Christ for the remission of sins? Who gets to decide how much obedience is enough and nothing more is needed? The Bible even explicitly states that baptism is not a work of righteousness that we have done (i.e. something we came up to produce our own righteousness). Notice Titus 3:5:
That word for “washing” is only used one other time in Ephesians 5:26.
The word “regeneration” means the same thing as being born again. It is essentially the “washing of the new birth.”
The washing of regeneration and the washing of water are the same thing and can only refer to water baptism. Baptism is not a man-made work for man-made righteousness, it is a command of God in order to receive the forgiveness of sins. How in the whole wide world could a person claim to have merited the blood of the Son of God on the cross by being baptized in water? Impossible!
The humble seeker of truth will examine the word of God to see what God commands. Seeing that, they will humbly submit to God’s will for their salvation. I have asked before for an example of someone being saved before or without complete obedience to God. None has been provided. Instead Kyle simply makes the assertion that several have been saved before being baptized in water for the remission of their sins. He attempts to explain away the clear statement to be baptized “for the remission of sins” and says that those on Pentecost were saved before Peter even told them to do so. However, notice what it says in verse 40 of Acts 2. “And with many other words did he [Peter] testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. Why tell people who, according to Kyle, were already saved to “save themselves”?
In the very next verse (Acts 2:41) it says, “Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.” When were they “added”? When they were baptized! Notice the last verse of Acts 2, verse 47, “And the Lord added to the church daily those that were being saved.” Who did the Lord add to the church, “those that were being saved.” When does it say about 3,000 people from Peter’s audience were “added to them”? When they were baptized! You do the math.
Kyle, as a friend I’m telling you to stay away from the Greek if you can’t do any better than your “explanation” of “for” (eis) in Acts 2:38. You gave Luke 5:14 as an example of where “for” means “because of.” What you failed to mention is that the Greek word eis is not even in that verse. That’s right, it is not even the same word translated “for” in Acts 2:38. Now, Kyle, are you being purposefully dishonest or did you simply not know that it was a different word?
The word in Luke 5:14 is peri, which means “about, concerning, on account of, because of, around, near” (Thayer’s Greek Lexicon). It is also used in regards to completeness. Jesus told the leper to do the requirements of the Law in order to complete his cleansing. Even though Jesus had cleansed him of the leprosy, he was not considered clean under the Law until he had made the appropriate sacrifice for cleansing.
Now, here is what Thayer’s, a highly respected Greek Dictionary, says for eis – “into, unto, to, towards, for, among.” This is the word used in the example you cite of Christ referring to Nineveh. But Christ is not talking about their repenting “because of” Jonah’s preaching. They were not spared simply “because” Jonah preached to them. They were spared because they repented “into, unto, to, towards” the preaching of Jonah. That is, Jonah came preaching the destruction of Nineveh unless they repented of their wickedness. They heard what Jonah was preaching and repented into the proscribed direction for their salvation. They were not spared because Jonah preached to them, they were spared because they did what Jonah said they had to do in order to be spared.
Kyle, why don’t you stop arguing with God and simply obey him for the saving of your soul? I beseech you on Christ’s behalf, “be ye reconciled to God.”
I didn’t feel like reading all those long winder monuments. So I will keep this short and sweet.
1. The thief on the cross died under the old law. . . Nuff said
2. Dying on your way to be Baptised? Only God can answer that one and I think it is covered in one word. . . “GRACE”
3. I just unfollowed this group. I never did like preachers that take 5 chapters to say and explain what can be said in a paragraph. Same with people debating. Keep it short and sweet and to the point.
Does grace remove the ability for God to Speak? Are we so arrogant to believe if we do what God asks that he owes us? The answer should be a quick and resounding no. Yet to proclaim baptism, an act of submission designed and taught by God, as something that removes grace and is automatically a work of merit is absurd. It would be equivalent to proclaiming your relative who passed away and left $50, 000 in his/her will for you didn’t actually leave you a gift but payment because in fact you went to the bank where he said you would recieve the check. So indeed you earned that check because well you worked for it.
As far as the thief on the cross argument, You are looking at the wrong cross. The one that died for you was Jesus not the theif. He gets to speak on our salvation. He clearly taught (Mark 16:15-16) and his apostles clearly taught (and practiced) baptism as part of the salvation experience.
Dieing on the way to the water? These arguments are plain silly. If it ever were to happen God is capable and able to make a judgment, is He not. To try and use a hypothetical argument to avoid what God has clearly asked you to do is sad indeed. And to blantantly ignore God’s command on the chance that He will over look it, is just outright dangerous under the weight of the body of examples in the scripture. And who in their right mind once realizing the tremendous love found and shown through Jesus would put it off to put themselves in such a predicament anyways? The Philippian jailer… the same hour….. the eunuch… they went straight way… Lydia baptised right there at the river she heard the gospel preached.
Kinda odd they found it to be an urgent matter, we find it to be an inconvience? Maybe there is nothing to do that, but I think it was Jesus that said yuo shall know them by their fruits. We know who these were, because we know how they responded, do we truly know who we are? Does it show in the way we respond?
Jesus’ sweat became like drops of blood as he agonized in the garden looking at what faithful devotion to the will of His Father meant. He not only faced it but obeyed it even giving His life there at the cross. And we want to argue about being briefly immersed under the water as if it is to much for God to ask us for.
People walked and talked with Jesus, watched Him perform miracles so profound they were undeniable to even His most ardent opponents and yet spit in His face and asked for His death shouting “Crucify Him!” If people refused His words while He spoke them in the flesh in person, it is not that surprizing they will refuse them from the written page.
God bless.
Nick, thanks for your good comment in this important discussion. The only point I would raise about it is whether or not God can make a judgement call regarding one who dies on the way to the baptistry. He has revealed very clearly what a person must do in order to be saved and he cannot alter that on a case by case basis (Titus 1:2). We often hear that nothing is impossible for God but the Bible says it is impossible for him to lie, i.e. to contradict what he has revealed. He cannot say one thing and do another. I do agree with you, though, that it is an absurd hypothetical argument against the necessity of baptism. You stated very well what a dangerous attitude this is to have toward obedience to the will of God.
Thanks again for your good contribution to the discussion.
“He has revealed very clearly what a person must do in order to be saved ”
–agreed–
“and he cannot alter that on a case by case basis (Titus 1:2).”
–never suggessted such, believe you have read more into my comment than intended–
“We often hear that nothing is impossible for God but the Bible says it is impossible for him to lie, i.e. to contradict what he has revealed. He cannot say one thing and do another.”
–not sure I agree with the step-logic you have performed in this statement. That God cannot lie I agree totally with. But God obviously has on several occassions asked or said one thing and accepted or did something different. The very fact that mercy exists it tantamount to the proof of this. God says (under the old covenant) that adultry is to be punished by stoning, yet neither David nor Beethsheba were stoned. God instead punished David by his own words (atleast in essence, i.e. the discussion with Nathan). Does the fact that God punsihed David in such away make this an alteration in a case by case fashion, I certainly don’t know anyone else who was punished in this fashion. No I think He simply made an exception. Does this show that God does not mean what He said, of course not! Anyone can see David was severly punished. Does this offer the next person after David a recourse against what God says if they are caught in adultry, no! God’s word is still God’s word. Could God make an exception, well He has in the past. Does that mean He must in the future, no! Could He? Not sure. But what should be well agreed upon is to base someone’s salvation on a possible exception that is rare in the actions of God (or even if it was not rare) is to take the role of God and more specifically the role of Jesus. We become the author of our own salvation which leaves as rejecting Jesus as the author of our salvation. And we know there is no salvation without Jesus.
The discussion gets off track (even if you are absolutely 100% correct, which you may very well be) when we go down these paths (just my opinion not meant as a dispersion, others find these discussions profitable). The question is simple, what has God revealed, am I willing to heed it? If I am willing, the rest of this is pointless argument. If I’m not, the rest of this is pointless argument.
Norm ,
Let me first explain that believing in the sense you are adding it in is not a work. Jesus is looking into as an action. This verse very plainly deals with believing on Jesus Christ (Heb 11:6 , Rom 14:23) One day, some people asked Jesus what they could do to please God: “What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?” Jesus immediately points them to faith: “This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent” (John 6:28-29). So, the question is about God’s requirements (plural), and Jesus’ answer is, “God’s requirement (singular) is that you BELIEVE Me.”
Grace is God’s giving us something we cannot earn or deserve. According to Romans 11:6, “work” of any kind destroys grace—the idea is that a worker earns payment, while the recipient of grace simply receives it, unearned. Since salvation is all of grace, it cannot be earned. Faith, therefore, is a non-work. Faith cannot truly be considered a “work,” or else it would destroy grace. We must understand through God’s Word for the FEW verses you can find which address what you call “baptismal regenration” there remains a logical answer unto each one (just as you attemtped to provide for not literally selling all you had to follow Christ) the Bible over and over tells us of faith. Salvation is not achieved by reciting some words or by the obedience of being baptized in water in the name of Jesus. It is achieved by believing that God is righteous and merciful and gracious to save. It is believing that God provided a Savior for all mankind who trust and believe in Him for their salvation. Believers by confessing Jesus Christ are confessing to the actual meaning of the name of the person that God sent to save them. The name “Jesus Christ” actually means “the anointed Savior of Jehovah” The gospel of John said that God came into the world in the form of a man (Jesus) and the world did not know Him but as many as received Jesus He has given the power to become sons of God (John 1:12). So John said salvation comes by receiving Jesus.
When people say they believe in Jesus but then they describe attributes that are not those of the holy anointed Savior from Jehovah they do not know God’s Savior even if they think they believe in the Jesus that Christians confess. On the other hand, someone not hearing the name Jesus but who understands that Jehovah is righteous to save may actually know Jesus even if they never actually heard His name in the common languages of Hebrew (Yeshua) or Greek (Jesus).
I defy anyone to show me from scripture where something besides belief in God’s Savior is required for salvation (God’s Savior as defined in the Bible). The Old and New Testament are full of passages that say we are saved by God’s grace through our belief in His Savior. The biblical truth is that we are saved by God’s grace through our faith (believing and trusting) in Jesus, God’s Savior.
——- Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Luk 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Joh 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh 12:36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.
Joh 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Joh 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
1Th 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Ti 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
1Jo 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
This scripture list is just the tip of the iceberg. I can assure you from the word of God if you believe that Jesus is Lord and believe that God raised Him from the dead you will be saved despite what all the legalistic teachers in the world say. If you believe that Jesus is Lord and that God raised Him from the dead you do not have to doubt your salvation but if you search your heart and know you do not trust in God’s Savior for your redemption, you are not saved even if you claim to be a Christian.
Thanks ,
Kyle.
First, Kyle qualifies how Jesus uses the word “faith” with no support (logical or Scriptural) whatsoever. He takes one instance of Christ referring to faith “singularly” to the exclusion of other clear passages where Christ connects faith with the works of obedience resulting from faith. For example, Kyle doesn’t want you to read Mark 16:16 – “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.” So, according to Kyle, Jesus contradicted himself when he connected faith with baptism here.
Next, Kyle gave his own definition of grace without any Scriptural support. He is responding to my showing what the Bible says about grace and, instead of admitting that his view of grace was not based on biblical evidence and changing to be in harmony with the biblical definition of grace, he goes right ahead with his unbiblical man-made definition. He abuses the context of Romans 11:6 to say that “works of any kind” will destroy grace. If Paul was talking about “works of any kind” then he would be in contradiction to James 2:24. In the context of Romans 11:6, Paul is dealing with a problem on the part of the Jews of his day. They believed one was justified by the works of the Law for the works sake. They made the Law a system of meritorious works – works to earn pay. Paul tells them that the works cannot earn, or merit, the gift of God’s mercy and love in Christ. That says absolutely nothing about the “obedience of faith,” a statement with which Paul opens and closes the letter to the Romans (1:5; 16:26). Strange that the very letter the “faith-only” denominationalists rely on so heavily begins and ends with a statement regarding faithful obedience.
Kyle says faith is a “non-work.” I have shown were Jesus referred to faith as a work but Kyle says it is a “non-work.” Bad move Kyle! You have never really been arguing with me, you have always been arguing with Christ. Your contention with Christ just keeps getting clearer and clearer the longer this discussion goes on.
He says, “I defy anyone to show me from scripture where something besides belief in God’s Savior is required for salvation.” Now, Kyle, I’m sure you are aware that your refusal to accept the abundance of evidence already provided, that any honest reader can see, does not mean there is no evidence. The article and the stream of comments following the article are chalked full of passage after passage describing God’s requirements for salvation. Just because you refuse to accept it doesn’t mean its not there, it just means that you do not read your Bible honestly. Your dishonesty handling the word of God has already been demonstrated in this discussion. I even showed where you presented an argument from a passage that did not even contain the word you were trying to twist with your denominational doctrine. Instead of responding with repentance for so twisting the Scriptures you just come back with your same tired line rejecting the clear Scripture of God.
Here’s another example of your dishonesty. In the list of passages you give above for “faith-only” salvation you include Acts 16:31 and Acts 19:4. You use both of these passages in isolation from their context. If you continue reading both of these show what a person will do when they truly believe, they will be baptized (Acts 16:33; 19:5).
Kyle, what man-made doctrine is worth your soul? Who are you trying to defend? You are trying so hard to defend something that is seen over and over again to be in contradiction to the Bible. Why is it so difficult to admit that you have been wrong about what you have believed and repent. You need to be saved while you have time. I have given the clear Scripture that you need to faithfully obey in order to be saved. I will give it again here because I love you and want to see you saved. Here the word of God, not denominational doctrine (Romans 10:17). Believe what it teaches about Christ and his kingdom (John 8:24; Acts 8:12). Repent of your sins, including your holding to man-made doctrine (Acts 17:30). Confess your faith in Christ (Romans 10:10). Be baptized into Christ for the forgiveness of your sins (Romans 6:3-5; Galatians 3:26-27).
It really breaks my heart to see someone try so hard to argue against God. It is just one of the many reasons I hate denominationalism so much.
Kyle,
All of the verses you have quoted are found in letters written to those already baptized. Have you not noticed this? Each one of these letters is written to a group of Christians at a certain location, i.e. the church. These letters in their very nature are not describing how to be saved, but describing, encouraging, challenging, correcting and informing on how to live as a Christian how to grow as a Christian, etc.
You have taken a modern day definition and application of the word believe that was not the understanding of the term as used in scripture. The word in the original text of the New testeament is the word “pisteuo”. I would challenge you to do some study on this term and you will find it does not connotate the meaning of the modern use of the word believe. Most today define belief today as “an intelectual acceptance of a stated fact.” However this simply will not meet the use of the word pisteuo in the original manuscripts.
Pisteuo carries the meaning of a strong conviction that is based on an established truth, by which one lays his full confidence on that truth and thereby demonstrates his commitment through appropriate obedience to that truth.
The simple truth is we don’t need Thayer or another Greek scholar to tell us this. Jesus said as plain as day. “If you love me, keep my commandments.” John 14:15
Now James actually speaks to this whole conversation, the real question remains why would I not to do what my Lord has asked of me?
“Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 But someone will say, ‘You have faith, and I have works.’ Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe–and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?”
James 2:17-20 (NKJV)
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