Norm

Preacher for the Bawcomville church of Christ, host of Bible Q-n-A and several web sites, web designer, twitterer and blogger.

23 responses to “Ascertaining Biblical Authority”

  1. Jarrod

    I just came across this on a web search I did to find quotes and references for the way many conservative churhces of Christ read the New Testament and teach authority to help me on a paper I’m writing. I have been there. I preached EXACTLY everything you are saying here, but through further study have come to a different view. There is SOOO much I’d like to say, but for the sake of time will limit myself to just a few comments, specifically as they pertain to comments you make about those you disagree with.

    You said:
    “When a person is honestly striving to please God according to what he has commanded in his word, they don’t have any problem determining what is authorized and what is not authorized. The problem with how to correctly ascertain biblical authority, and the principle of authority in general, only arises when people are trying to justify doing something for which they have no authority from God to do.”

    With all due respect, this is a very arrogant statement. You are basically saying that among all who love the Lord and are striving to serve Him and humbly submit to His will, the only ones that are really striving are those of the view you hold. I regret to say that I too once thought that to be the case, until I started actually listening to what others were saying and what they believed and why. What I found were good honest men who had sought the truth diligently and come to different conclusions than you in so doing. That doesn’t make them right of course, but please, let’s address the issues without attacking the character of those we disagree with.
    I too once preached that those who used instruments and did all sorts of other things did so only because it’s what they wanted to do and they then sought to twist the scriptures to find approval. But brother, such is simply not the case at all. Are there some who fit that description you gave? Certainly. But many who have come to different conclusions than you do not. They are good honest men doing what they do not because it’s what they want, but because they are striving to do their best to glorify God and sees approval for doing so in certain ways that you do not. Again, that doesn’t make them right, but don’t attack someone’s character. Only God knows the heart.

    You said:
    “Most thinking, rational people use and understand this level of authority in every aspect of their lives. They only want it thrown out when it interferes with them doing whatever they want and calling it worship. ”

    You are here essentially calling all those with whom you disagree unthinking and irrational people only care about doing what they want to do and care little or nothing about glorifying God. I can only assume that you either have never had a heart to heart talk with many brethren who disagree with you, or that you have just so prejudged their motives so that there is no way they can disagree with you and still be a thinking rational person who seeks to glorify God above all else.

    You said:
    “The kinds of objections raised in the “question” is evidence of rejecting God’s authority more so than ignorance of it. To point out the use of pews as an example of something that is not authorized, as though that would justify doing things that aren’t authorized in other areas, is simply dishonest and illogical.”

    I’m afraid you have missed the point in those of us who say such things. Certainly we don’t think pointing out one thing as unauthorized would somehow authorize something else. Yes, that would be dishonest and illogical, and I know of no one who has ever been so ignorant as to make such an argument. If you do, please provide quotes and references rather than making an unfair generalization that attacks the character of everyone you disagree with. The point we make when saying things such as this is that your application of your hermeneutic is inconsistent. We are simply pointing out inconsistencies in hopes that you will realize that something is wrong with your paradigm and how you read the New Testament.

    Meg had some comments about leaving a legacy of love, which I thought were great comments. To them you replied:

    “Your comments about a “legacy of love” and turning the Bible into a rule book, while well intentioned as they may be, are misguided. This is one of the ways that liberal minded apostates have attempted to remake the church of our Lord, which he purchased with his own blood (Acts 20:28), after the image of man-made denominations. It takes the twisted and sick worldly idea of “love” and attempts to bring the Bible into subjection to it, rather than being transformed into the biblical image of true and beautiful godly love. ”

    Such comments are most certainly not misguided! Love is the essence of all scripture. Love is the command on which hang all the Law and the Prophets. God Himself is Love. Indeed, if we are to be His children, our legacy too should be Love, and Meg is right on in stating that such is not the legacy churches of Christ have made for themselves. It is not a twisted and sick worldly idea of love that Meg was talking about, as is obvious from the example she gave. She gave an example of one doing what Jesus said was the ultimate act of love-laying down your life. That man she mentioned laid down his life for his King! Brother, with all due respect, how in the world do you make that out to be a sick twisted worldly idea of love??? That is precisely the precise personification of agape love!

    Further you said:
    “According to your desire for a worldly love, you are basically saying that you are willing to compromise anything and everything to have people think you love them. If it is hard or potentially offensive to someone, according to this idea, it should be put aside (i.e., compromised). ”

    No, that is not what we are saying. Look again at the example. The man laid down his life, and would NOT compromise his faith, despite the persecution. Comments like this are evidence that you are prejudging the heart and comments of anyone who disagrees with you. Brother, please realize this!

    Further you said:
    “Why would we think that we show the love of Christ by tolerating sin and every manner of man-made whim being practiced in his worship? ”

    Who are you referring to here? No one said we show the love of Christ by tolerating sin. As no one said such a thing, you are just putting words into the mouths of those you disagree with. Whether it be your direct intent or not (having been where you are for many years, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are not) you are prejudicing your readers rather than accurately informing them. This is a natural thing that happens which we don’t even notice when we have pre-judged others ourselves, as you have pre-judged the hearts and minds of those you disagree with.

    Further you said:
    “Meg, the fact is, you cannot find the kind of “legacy of love” you are talking about being expressed toward any of God’s righteous servants in his word. ”

    Brother, Meg was not talking about love being expressed TOWARDS God’s servants, but being expressed BY God’s servants.

    There is much more that could be said about hermenutics and how we are to read and apply the New Testament, but such would be futile until your heart is open to hearing and honestly considering other viewpoints without all the misrepresenting of others and judging of others hearts that runs throughout your discourse.

    All that being said, let me state again that I was once where you are and preached exactly what you preach. I understand very much the mindset, and know that I certainly was guilty of the same things I charged you with, and then some. I was so caught up with a zeal to teach what I believed to be the truth that I didn’t even realize the condition of my heart and attitude towards others. Of course I don’t know your heart, so understand that I am not saying your heart is not right. Only God knows. But your attitude towards those you disagree with does seem rather manifest, and we will never reach the point where we can all gather together in love and humility to honestly consider His word and seek His truth as long as that attitude and many of the comments of which you made about those you disagree with are present.

    Please think and pray on these things and give them some quiet reflection.

    God bless.

  2. Mel

    Here’s a scripture that points to legacy:
    1.Proverbs 3:34,35
    ” Surely He scorns the scornful,
    But gives grace to the humble.
    The wise shall inherit glory,
    But shame shall be the legacy of fools.
    Personally I have seen that the church is not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ, the power to save…- Rms 1:16. So heres what I would say, (because I think I am “most anyone today” because I am a sinner just like everyone else) and speak in subjection to God and in the Light of the Love of God. So, the legacy i have seen reflects exactly what I see as the church of Christ today and in the past. Here is my statement of Love, and appreciation:

    To my Brethren: “I Love You”……
    “Jesus Christ built the most glorious church I have ever seen. The love I have seen and experienced as a member of the church has always amazed me. I have felt awe and amazement that even when I was weak, there was love from my brethren. Even when I was lost and left the congregation, when I returned, after quite a few years, I was accepted back, with open arms. With tears, and with love. The Christians prayed for me the moment I returned and still do today.

    I have experienced humble men and women, who have studied, prayed and cared. Men and women who have listened to the cares I have and sat on pews or stood in parking lots, spent time on the phone and gave of their time and lives to make my faith richer. The men that have spent hours studying the bible and preaching and teaching and proclaiming that Christ is God’s Son.

    The sermons on love and I Corinthians and the messages on Paul. Studies and Bible Reading, Old Test., New Test., Original Greek, Hebrew. Some of the greatest servant ministers that have expressed the scriptures I owe great gratitude to and love. And to their wives that have shown to the congregation great care and love. To the fellowship, songs, food, clothes given. To the women have prepared for the grieving at funerals.

    The love and the tears prayed for the sick and the numberous sick with cancer or illnesses. The food pantry servants that have been willing and able to be humble and go and spend time to serve and aid the poor. The love of the Bible school teachers to prepare lessons and greet Children that have needed to hear God’s word. The bible studies done on tables at buildings and in resturants and in homes and work lunch tables. I see that love, that care, that sacrifice that priority that goes to preach the gospel.

    The men and women that have confessed their sins and corrected their lives in order to give God back the control of their lives, after being hit by satan’s darts and “not give up ” and repent and humble their lives before God. I’ve seen Men and Women say they are sorry for their sins and cry their eyes out.

    Jesus love and building his church does shine still and I have seen it in the past, I have seen members of the body of Christ door knock, pass out flyers, invite their neighbors to know Christ, to experience Christ , to worship Him, to pray, to go to Panama, China, Russia, and into their own backyards in America to reach out to tell others that their is a God is Alive.

    The Men and women who help others. The singing to admonish one another, or humbly giving of their means, without a # placed on the plate they give, yet give God the glory of any and all works done under his voice and to please him.

    Who humbly yet boldly speak out to stand up for the principles of Gods word, to encourage their brethren.

    The church that continues to preach and deliver the gospel and stress keeping the gospel Pure and Not to be soon removed from the simplicity that the gospel spells. Messages of The entrance into the Kingdom of God by the calling of the Gospel, the answer of a good conscience towards God in baptism, the love that we never can outgrow or do without… that message is still being preached and proclaimed by preachers with the Gospel of Peace. I’ve heard it and seen it.

    The men that protect their women, that love their women and sisters in Christ and would hurt if she hurts. The men that protect their men when it comes to sins that tempt the mans heart to stray God.

    This is the church of Christ that I have known and seen and heard and owe a debt of love to. This is the the bride Christ prayed for to be One in Him. Thank God He built it.

    Sure I have seen mistakes too. But, that is why God inspired Hebrews 13 , so that we could remember that we need other Christians everyday to help us to stay out of sin.

    If we are studying and asking God for His righteousness and the Guidance of the Holy Spirit, Praise God for any and all attempts to find unity in Christ and His Church.

    Meg, I want my legacy to be about my love for Christ and being a servant to others too, and I believe, that giving God Glory for the good that my brethren have done over the years is a shining light.

    To him that overcometh the world, there is to be given a crown of righteousness. I hope others that see members of the Lords church doing the best they can, will also see Christs love, and will forgive us where we faulter.

    What does the statement I just wrote have to do with musical I’s… Perhaps it is that the praise we give God in His church and the love we have for one another is exemplified by how much we follow Christ ‘s example.

    Lord willing, Norm, in God’s wisdom, would you please expound on the passage of following Christ- doesn’t it say in the New Testament that Christ sang? It points back to your points on Biblical Inference, Commands to Obey, and Examples to Follow, doesn’t it???

  3. Eliud Gamez Sr.

    Anyway thanks Bro. Norm. but up today I did not get any answer to my last doubts in your site.
    In regard to my doubts about CONGREGATIONAL SINGING, I understand that Amos (Amos 5: 20-25) did not pronounced a curse upon who like David introduced instrumental music into Hebrew worship? it is God who is rejecting all of the features of their worship because of the gross sins of the nation. Let me know your biblical opinion
    Concerning if we can or can not sing in four-part harmony. I do not know what is biblical correct.
    More doubts are coming up in my mind about this theme.
    1.-In congregational acappella singing, who is the four part harmony really for? Is it more for our benefit than it is for God?.
    2.-Where is any authority in the NT authorizing a song leader?
    3.-Is the use or non-use of an instrument would seem to fall into the category of adiaphora: that is, a thing that is free or permitted because it has neither been commanded nor prohibited in explicit terms as revealed in the New Testament.
    Hope you or your comentators give me some Biblical advice or answer to my doubts.
    Eliud

  4. Jeff B

    Eliud,
    Here’s a couple of short answers to your questions.
    1. I don’t really have an answer other than to say that sometimes a song is written for a four part harmony and that they’re just following the song.
    2. 1 Corinthians 14:40 says that we should do things “decently and in order”. A song leader simply helps us to do that.
    3. There are many things that aren’t explicitly forbidden in the Bible. For example, God told Noah to use gopher wood to build the ark (Gen 6:14). However, He didn’t explicitly forbid oak, maple, or any other types of wood. So, do you think that God would have allowed the ark to float if Noah had used any other wood besides gopher wood? Also, God told Moses to speak to the rock in order to get water from it. God, did not explicitly forbid Moses to strike it. However, Moses did strike it, and, while God still provided the water, He forbid Moses from ever setting foot in the promised land (Numbers 20:8-12).
    Likewise, God hasn’t explicitly forbidden musical instruments. However, in Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16 God has specified what he does want us to do, sing and make melody in the heart.
    Btw, sorry no one answered your questions sooner. Norm recently updated this site and accidently took down the widget that informs us of new posts so we didn’t know that anyone had posted.

  5. Eliud Gamez

    Thanks a lot Brothers Norm and Jeff, your biblical answers to my questions clarify my doubts, I agree with you regarding four part harmony singing, I found out that
    given the simple fact that men and women do not sing in the same range, defeats the argument that harmony cannot be used in congregational singing. Even while singing in what is called “unison” multiple notes at octave intervals are being sung.
    The reason we have harmony is because the human voice doesn’t produce a single note. We sing a base note upon which are numerous harmonics. We preceive a blending of harmonys when those harmonics line up. Barber shop singers refer to “ringing the rafters” when multiple harmonics line up because the frequencies reinforce each other and the result is a louder sound. If only pure notes were required by God, then it would be impossible for the human voice to produce.
    May God continues blessing you for sharing Christ.
    Eliud Gamez Sr.

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