I received the following message from the ten minute clip of this lesson on YouTube.
Please post the rest of the lesson. This is so detailed and helping me to really understand. I wonder about this all the time and can’t find teachings that are complete. Every time I have asked a preacher about this all I hear is “Don’t worry about that, it doesn’t happen anymore.” I want to understand and stop wondering. Thank you for this lesson, hope you can add more. God bless you.
This is why I started using Vimeo for my videos. I don’t have to chop them up on ten minutes segments. Here it is in its entirety, as preached for the Commerce church of Christ in their ‘08 Gospel Meeting. Let me know what you think.
In His Service,
Norm
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“We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. 1 John 4:13
John 10:28-29
28I give them (present tense) eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one (all-inclusive) can (total inability) snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me (election), is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.
Now that statement is more than enough. Those words were uttered by our Lord and Saviour Himself without any qualification. They aee a dogmatic assertion (something you are quite familiar with), an absolute assurance; and they could not be stronger. I just can wait to here how you will use your Doctrine of Implication to blaspheme His words.
“Let not the things you are certain of rob you of that which you are certain.” D. Martyn Lloyd Jones What our Lord say is an absolute certainty, so you can lay it down as an absolute proposition; then you take all other verses and look at them in light of this. But somehow using you login and reason you should have no trouble perveting it….just like you did with the feeble use of 2 Thess. 3:10 as a reference to salvation…..I take you for a lot of things, but stupid was not among them until you attempted that pitiful post……sheer stupidity!
Steve,
Have you not learned to maintain the context? 1 John 4:13 is speaking of those who are “IN” Christ, not those who are outside. Yes, we receive His Spirit at baptism, not before, or without.
2 Thess. 3:10 was in reference to your brand of salvation, not mine, I was just quoting you. Sorry you misunderstood.
the problem that we have in agreeing, is that you like to take everything literal, and hate reason, and implication, while I am consistent and take them all together, applying them as they should be. As for John 10:28-29, we both agree that Jesus said those words. However, you forgot verse 27 that says, “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they FOLLOW ME.” There is your qualifier for the next two verses. Yes, Jesus will give us eternal life, and we shall never perish, neither shall anyone be able to pluck us out of His hand. CONDITIONED on verse 27 – that we continue to follow Him! As free moral agents, God has given each of us the ability to choose right or wrong, good or evil, God or Satan, heaven or hell. It is our choice. Therefore, we can choose no longer to follow Him, thereby losing eternal life and perishing. But no one can ever pluck us out of His hand, we do so of our own choosing.
And please don’t insult our intelligence by trying to say that such a person was never saved in the first place, or that only the body can sin, and not the spirit after salvation. No where in the Bible can you find such an argument, except of course by twisting the Scriptures.
While I agree that it is our souls. our spirits that are saved and that will live on, I can’t believe that anyone would argue that your flesh is the only thing that will sin, as Jesus said we are to fear Him who is able to destroy BOTH body and soul in hell (Matthew 10:28).
You are definitely right about one thing – I do hate your implications because you use it to take liberty and license with scripture and mis-apply application that is bordering on blasphemous.
You say “‘My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they FOLLOW ME.” There is your qualifier for the next two verses.”
Of course that is a qualifier, do I need you post all of Chapter 10 to verify that John 10:28-29 is spoken to follower? So clearly John 10:28-29 as a statement on the believer’s assurance is more than enough. That means sufficient…in no need of further qualification or certainly in no need of implication on your part. Those words to believers were uttered by our Lord and Savior Himself without any qualification. They are a dogmatic assertion, an absolute assurance; and they could not be stronger. What our Lord says here is an absolute certainty; but you, instead of taking all other verses and interpreting them in light of this dogmatic statement, use your implications to say it does not mean what it says.
You no doubt would say that a man must be “born again” today, but that tomorrow he may cease to be born again. That is impossible by the fact that when we are born again we are “new creations”, and it is montrous for you to claim it is possible, and again it border on blasphemy. You start with your errant preposition that God is not sovereign in the work of salvation. You think that you can have some emotional experience that come and go; you can make decisions for Christ and then renounce them, but the Bible teaches the activity and the action of God. We love Him because he first loved us. And when God does a work it is done effectually, and if you are in Christ you are in Christ. If you are a partaker of the divine nature and joined to, and made a part of, Christ in spiritual union, there can be no severance.
There are so many other verses which are clear on the Doctrine of Assurance
John 6:37-39 (NIV)
37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
John 6:44 (NIV)
44″No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
Philippians 1:6 (NIV)
6……being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will20carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
Hebrews 7:24-25 (NIV)
25Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.
1 Corinthians 3:11-15 (NKJV)
11 For no other foundation can anyone l ay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
How very sad for you to think it is your might that ultimaely keeps you saved instead of the work of Christ – how ugly! It reminds me of what Sinclair Ferguson once said, “……ultimately you are not so much saved by putting YOUR FAITH in Christ; but rather it is CHRIST WHO SAVES thru faith.” Obviously the latter emphasizes the work of Christ to save, but with the former it is about “YOUR” faith decision, and thus “YOUR” ability to keep it must then logically (you like that part) follow. Needless to say one completely glorifies God, and the other is a default position for boasting just because it denies God what is due Him. How much more appreciation and devotion does one have for a “free gift of infinite value”; as opposed to something you choose to access – if you have some reasonable or logical interest in accessing it – because you are smarter than the next guy – or maybe you are just more spiritually sensitive than the next guy? Gee, if you are going to all this trouble don’t you deserve just a little credit for YOUR decision.
All of your logic, reason, and implications are nothing more than satan-duped opportunities to do what you do best – rob God and His spirit of their Glory – STOP THIEF! REPENT THIEF!
Your problems seems to always stem from an embracing of the wrong proposition from the very beginning and then find scripture perfect for you wrong implication. And the people who do not believe in assurance always point to people in the Bible who seemingly “fall away”; but the Bible speaks to all of those individuals in 1 John 2:19 “They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.”
Foolishness – sheer foolishness!
Steve,
It is difficult to ascertain the tone in which you or I write, but I would hope that the only tone that either of us would have, is the love for a lost soul! Yes, that is right, one of us, or both of us are lost. I know you hate to hear this, but it is logically impossible for both of us to be correct in our understanding of the Scriptures, while being so far apart. And really, we are not as far apart as it would appear. There are just many straw man arguments being made by yourself, that make it appear that we do not agree, when the reality is that we do agree for the most part, just not totally.
The only purpose that I and Norm have for posting these questions, is because it is these issues that separates us. I would hope that you would agree that our Lord prayed for unity in John 17:20-21. That unity means that it is His desire that ALL of His followers be ONE, UNITED, of the SAME mind, teaching the SAME thing, worship Him in the SAME way, etc. That is our only motivation here. To start up a dialogue, whereby we can discuss what the Bible truly says about different subjects, and to get to the heart of it, so that you, and I, and Norm and others can agree one doctrine at a time, until we reach that perfection of unity.
We are not hear to argue, for arguments sake, that gets us no where, and keeps us in the same position as when we started. If it is the case that we are incorrect, then please teach us the more perfect way. But if it is the case that you are incorrect, I would hope that pride has not set in to the point that you are unwilling to hear it. I know that I myself have had to change my views over the years. It was not easy, but my pride had to give way to submission to God’s will. You say that what I believe does not give glory to God, that I am robbing Him. Could not the same be said of you, should it be you who are wrong? absolutely. It could also be the case that both of us are robbing Him. So what is the answer?
The answer is that both of us should at all times be prepared to go to God’s word with an open and honest mind. We should always seek His will in every matter. We should always be testing the spirits to see whether they are of God (1 John 4:1). We should always be putting our faith to the test (2 Corinthians 13:5). We should everyday be as noble as the Bereans who searched the Scriptures daily to make sure that what they were taught, was not taken out of context (Acts 17:11). That is my goal, I would hope that it was yours.
My goal also, is the same as my Lord’s. To seek and save the lost (Luke 19:10; Matthew 28:18-20). But should some properly show me that I am the one who is lost, then, reluctantly I might add, I would search the Scriptures to make sure, and if so, then make the proper corrections.
Rather than throwing out insults, which both of us have been guilty of, and I apologize, then we should be calmly working together to find common ground. I understand that not everyone is willing to do so, but I know that I am. If we are both seeking the same end (an eternal home in heaven), then we should both be willing to do what it takes [including swallowing our pride], to work together to find the one and only truth that sets men free.
What do you think?
Steve,
I will continue on as if we have both agreed to help one another toward the one goal of eternal life.
Going back to John 10:28-29. We both agree wholeheartedly that Jesus will give every person that ‘abides’ in Him (John 15:1-8), eternal life. I also agree with you that all the verbs in those two verses are present tense. Present tense I believe we both understand to mean continuing action, action in progress. Since we agree that that is true, then we should also agree that the paraphrase of those two verses would read, “My sheep continue day after day to hear My voice and day after day keep on following Me and I day after day keep on giving them eternal life.” Would this not be correct? If not, please show me why?
I will continue with my argument. Since this is the case that Jesus is saying that He will keep on giving His followers eternal life BECAUSE they continue to follow Him, then would it not be true that should a person choose not to follow Jesus, that He would no longer give them eternal life? Please think through this carefully.
Mike, I noticed that you offered only 2 options as to my/your spiritual fate (lostness) and not a third more positive possiblility.
It is rare that one could offer just one video from your friend Norm that clearly addresses why you are blind to the third possibily; while at the same time addressing the the topic of “spiritual pride.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rn7uqdsFwHk&feature=related
I assure you that I have no issues with self-examination and the neediness I feel as a result of my spiritual poverty.
Good-bye Mike.
Steve,
I’m sorry that I combined one of the options – that either one of us is correct or both of us are wrong, those are the only options. Logically. But irrationally, then there are other options of course.
I’m sorry that you don’t feel the need to try to correct my error, that you imply that I am in. My purpose for being here is to do that very thing for you, because I love your soul. But apparently, you who speaks so highly of grace, and love, do not love my soul enough to give me the time of day. How sad for you, and your false view of Christ-likeness.
Steve,
I would like to know your point behind the video?????
How does that establish a third option? I have already stated all the options.
(1) Norm and I are correct in our understanding of the Scriptures and you are not.
(2) You are correct in your understanding of the Scriptures and Norm and I are not
(3) All three of us are wrong in our understanding of the Scriptures.
those are logically the ONLY options. Are they not?
Mike, as you hit me with a post twice back to back I will respond one last time to this “need to follow the sheperd” in which we can totally agree. And we agree that there is no such thing as “cheap grace” that leads to any form of antinomianism, and that we are to follow the Lord all the days of our lives. So could I not be persuaded by the old hymn that says “He is able to keep that which I have committed against that day”….seeing and knowing that he is at work in me, that He will never forsake me nor leave, that He strengthens me, that he who began a good work in me just might be able to perfect that work to the end as He promised? Instead of my strength and my might, does it not make sense that we could imply from all of these promises that His activities and His abilities just might enable you and I to be successful in our efforts to “follow the sheperd?” Especially in light of the fact that my following Him and my obedience to Him coincides with His good pleasure and will for my life?
If this is something in which you diagree, then my final suggestion would be that when you are accused of having a work/righteousness belief system just admit “yes I do” and move on.
Philippians 2:13
for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
Hebrews 13:5
Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said, “Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you.”
Philippians 4:13
I can do all things through Him who strengthens me.
Philippians 1:6
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
I will pray for you. Final good-bye Mike.
Steve,
So in other words, your third option is for us all to just agree to disagree, and that God is able to save us all, no matter what we believe and teach? Is that what you believe?
I certainly hope not. I am sorry that reason has defeated your arguments. I hope that one day you will come to a knowledge of the truth.
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