Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the Grace ofGod: for if righteouness comes by the law,
Then Christ died in vain…

You are not saved by works, and if you think you are, and you are under the LAW,
and Jesus is of no effect to you. you are fallen from grace,

To me it is funny how they can except the idea of Adam’s Disobedience bring the curse
of Sin and Death into the world, making everyone sinners,
Romams 5:18-19
18)Therefore as by the offence(Dsobedience)of one (ADAM) judgment came upon all men to condemnation,

They are not so willing to except the finished work of the Cross,
2 Corinthians 5: 21 For he (God) has made him(Jesus Christ) sin for us, (Jesus) who knew
no sin: that we might be made the righteousnes of God in Him (Jesus)

This is the second half of Romans 5:18, Even so by the righteousnes of one(Jesus) The Free Gift (GRACE) and Free Gift of Righteouness came upon all men unto justification of life.

19) For as by one man’s (ADAM’S) disobedience, all were made sinners, so by the obedience of one(Jesus Christ) shall many be made righteouss.

Because of Adam we were born into a prision of sin, we can not do anything to get out..
Does not matter what Denomination you are, how many days you attend church, how many
times you have read the bible. It is not what we do that saves us, it is what Jesus did on
Calvary..

God is offering anyone that unmerited, unearned, undeserved Free Gift of GRACE, and Righteousness, Through Jesus Christ….

Ephisians 2:8
For it is by Grace we are saved through faith; and not of yourself,it is THE GIFT OF GOD..

Now I am in the prision of rigteousness, there was nothing on my own I could do to get,
in, now there is nothing I can do to get out,

Jesus paid for All Sin, I don’t think he missed one.. Past, present and future sin,
He is my High Priest,, God does not look at me to see if my sins are forgiven, he looks at the High Priest.. The Sin offering was good, The priest is alive at the right hand of God,
and I am still made righteous..

Hebrews 10:10 By the which (GOD’s) will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jeus Christ ONCE AND FOR ALL..

God does not examine us to forgive our sins, Jesus became our sin, an paid for them on the Cross..

If you are saying If I sin I lose my salvation, You are making sin more powerful than God’s
Grace..

Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. I don’t know how many cursed things/angels will be in heaven. I know of one and his angels that were kicked out.

However it is not the case that we have carte blanche to add to, or subtract from God’s Word, nor to twist them into some excruciating mass of inaccuracies. Let it be known, that this is NOT a personal attack upon Mr. Gagnon himself, but on the doctrine, or should I stress – false doctrine that he holds so firmly to.

The subject is the false doctrine of “Once-saved-Always-saved” or “Eternal Security.” It matters not which is used, for they both lead to the same unsubstantiated conclusion. That once a person is purportedly saved, that they can NEVER lose their salvation. They can always depend upon a home in heaven, no matter what they may do while on earth. While we both agree that the “soul” of the individual is what is saved, proponents of the “Eternal Security” swindle believe and teach that the soul is unable to sin, once it is saved – ONLY the flesh sins. Please correct me if I misunderstand this point.

Several Baptist preachers have told me that they so believe in this doctrine, that they believe that they may with God’s approval, go out to a local bar, consume enough intoxicating alcohol to cause them to pass out, then upon waking up, they may walk across the street, pay for the services of a prostitute, then once leaving that prostitute, get hit by a car and killed, as still receive eternal life in heaven! Please, Please, show us by the Scriptures where such activity is allowed. I’m sure that those who teach this, will be able to take out of context, as well as leave out various passages in order to prove their case.

Mr. Gagnon focused his answer to Jeff B. on a very interesting twisting of the event revolving around Ananias and Sapphira.

It is HIS belief that their death does not prove the loss of salvation. In fact, he goes on to make the argument, and I quote: “….it is more than likely that Ananias and his wife were chastised by God as a PROOF that they were saved and God sent a powerful message to the rest of the community that it was not the time to play with the Lord, trying to cover some things.” (emp. Mine). If we are going to apply Mr. Gagnon’s logic here, that God will only chastise the saved as proof of their salvation, then what are we to believe about 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 or 1 Timothy 1:9-10 or Galatians 5:19-21? Please, Mr. Gagnon, show us the “EXCEPTION” in those passages! Paul clearly says that a person BOTH the saved and unsaved will be excluded from eternal life in heaven should they be found taking part in these activities as well as any that are similar!

Mr. Gagnon admitted that Ananias and his wife were BOTH saved – therefore, based on what the Bible teaches, they were BOTH lost!

It is sad, that men will fight God, twisting His word into every sort of abominable doctrines that are right in their own eyes, rather than obeying the simple and pure gospel that saves all.

We can exclude the OSAS (once saved always saved) acronym if that insults you, and only use the “Eternal Security” acronym, but in the end they are one and same thing. I don’t understand how one can bias a debate, and the other one not – when neither can be proved by God’s Word.

Thank you for your good post. As for the questions you asked, I am very acquainted with them since they are almost always the same people have in mind to refute the security of believers.

Now, to begin with, we have to clear up one thing. Those who refuse to believe in the security of the believer, once saved, use the acronym OSAS (Once Saved, Always Saved). I would invite people to reject this notion for the very purpose that the doctrine of the security of the saints has greatly been ill-treated using this acronym. The reason is quite simple. Once saved, always saved is often interpreted as meaning that once a person is saved he/she is free to live the way he/she wants whereas this is not true. To be frank, this cannot be farther from the truth! However, having said that, it does not mean that salvation is loosable, once justified by God. Now, your questions.

You said: What about Ananias and Sapphira?

Some people think that these two fellows of the early Church were not really saved. Although there seems to be some debates about that, I would think that they were both actually real Christians. However, to say that they have been lost after their death is to see in the text what is simply no there. Here is what it really says:

“But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession. And he kept back part of the proceeds, his wife also being aware of it, and brought a certain part and laid it at the apostles’ feet. But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? “While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.” Then Ananias, hearing these words, fell down and breathed his last. So great fear came upon all those who heard these things. And the young men arose and wrapped him up, carried him out, and buried him. Now it was about three hours later when his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. And Peter answered her, “Tell me whether you sold the land for so much?” She said, “Yes, for so much.” Then Peter said to her, “How is it that you have agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out.” Then immediately she fell down at his feet and breathed her last. And the young men came in and found her dead, and carrying her out, buried her by her husband. So great fear came upon all the church and upon all who heard these things.” (Acts 5:1-11)

Now, let us look at it in two possible perspectives. First, as you can see, this text does not say that Ananias and his wife were already real born-again Christians. Granted, they were among the community of believers, but that does not guarantee the salvation of anybody to be among other believers. We well know that people may hang around us without being saved at all. As a matter of fact, has Jesus not said that it was possible to be among the believers while being the tares among the wheat? (Mat. 13:24-30). Having said that, it just proves that we cannot say for sure that these two people were really saved to begin with. This is a possible interpretation of the text. To say that they were Christians just because

“Ananias and Sapphira were saved at one point because they were attempting to give a free-will offering, and it’s only proper for members of the church to do so.”

This argument is a very shaky ground to say the least! I would dare to label it as an argument of despair at best! A person does not prove his salvation because he is ready to participate in an offering of any kind. Churches are full of people who are not truly saved, yet giving their money when the offering plates pass before them. It would be hard to be farther from the truth to say that those who give are saved.

Second, the other option is to consider that Ananias and his wife were both truly saved. How should we handle the matter in such a case? By the way, I do believe that they were both saved. But, do I believe that they lost their salvation because they died after their common lies? Not at all. Here is how we should see the matter. We know that the Lord chastises all those he recognizes as his children (Heb. 12:6). More than that, the same text says that if anyone is exempted from the chastisement it is rather a proof that he is not saved (Heb. 12:8). Again, to be chastised does not necessarily mean that we must die, but there are some for whom it was the case, though (1 Cor. 11:30). Therefore, it is more than likely that Ananias and his wife were chastised by God as a proof that they were saved and God sent a powerful message to the rest of the community that it was not the time to play with the Lord, trying to cover some things. Rather than proving that they were not saved or that they lost their salvation it is more than likely a proof that they were saved and as a result of their sinful behaviour, they were punished on the spot by God to produce the fear of the Lord on the rest of the community, a thing that really happened immediately after (Acts 5:5, 11). Now, the case of Demas.

Demas was not necessarily a real born-again Christian just because he was a fellow-worker with Paul for a time. Now, he may have been truly saved as well. We do not simply know. Jeff B. gave the arguments that because he forsake Paul to go back into the world was a clear mark of his apostasy. Interestingly, Jeff admitted that we do not know if Demas repented afterwards. This is a very important point to keep in mind. The fact that the Bible does not tell us if he came back to the Lord is not a 100% proof that he never did. It would be, at best, an argument from silence; a thing we must always avoid to do in interpreting a text. But if we look elsewhere in the Bible, another passage from Jesus, it is very possible that he was a believer, but only for a season. The parabole of the sower tells us such a possibility. The second and third field represent those who believe, but for whatever reason they left down the road. As such, the second field shows us a person who left because of the high requirement of the Word (persecution or other things like that). The third field shows us a person who left for the pleasure of this world, the very thing for which Demas is described. But we must be clear that Jesus wanted to tell his disciples that out of the four fields, only the last represented the truly saved person. So, Demas might have been one case or another. Either he was a real Christian who repented later (a thing we cannot know for sure) or he was not a real Christian to begin with; and this, even though he served with Paul for a time. Do not forget that Jesus said that a truly born again Christian perseveres to the end. Salvation is not by works, but it must show works of faith as said James.

Now, as for the cases of the OT people, the situation does not apply at all. We must never forget that they lived under another economy. They were before the cross. The modality of salvation has always been by faith (just see Abraham), but the question of being stable in the walk is quite different since the death of Christ since from that moment on, the Holy Spirit is now living on the inside of the believer forever, a thing that was not in force within the OT saints.

The rest of Jeff’s argument should be read through the lens of what is written above. This is 100% sure that the possibility of loosing one’s salvation is a false doctrine. I pray God to convince people of that. This is a serious threat against the very person of God and the work of Christ to teach that salvation might be lost.

Those who use the acronym OSAS (Once Saved, Always Saved), should find another tactic to rebuke the doctrine of the security of salvation. And by the way, OSAS should never be used by any Christian because if biases the debate rather than to enlighten it.

Annanias and Sapphira were saved at one point because they were attempting to give a free-will offering, and it’s only proper for members of the church to do so. Also, the only ones who are members of the church are those who are saved (Acts 2:27). They clearly lost thier salvation when they committed the sin of lying and were immediatly struck dead (Acts 5:5,10).

Demas was also saved at one point. Paul calls him and Marcus (Mark), Aristarchus, and Lucas (Luke) fellowlabourers (Philemon 24). Paul is clearly referring to being fellowlabourers in Christ. Demas was also mentioned by Paul in Colossians 4:14. Paul then said that Demas had “forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica” (II Timothy 4:10), showing that Demas had fallen away from the faith. However, whether or not Demas repented and regained his salvation is unknown.

As for some Old Testament examples, how about Ham the son of Noah? Was he not “saved” from the flood? Did he not become lost after his sin against his father (Genesis 9:21-27)?

What about the people of Israel at the foot of Mt Sinai after their Exodus from Egypt? Were they not “saved” after crossing the Red sea (Exodus 14-15)? Did they not lose their salvation after making the golden calf and worshipping it (Exodus 32)? Did not all but two individuals (Joshua, and I forget the other) from that incident die in the wilderness because of that sin?

These are buit just a few of the many examples of people losing their salvation in the Bible, there are over TWO THOUSAND more examples. I’m sorry Richard, but it is your doctrine, the doctrine of once-saved-always-saved that is false. The Bible makes that quite clear.