I receive a lot of comments from viewers of the “Rapture” videos I have on YouTube. Nearly all of those comments chide me for saying that the word “Rapture” is not found in the Bible. They usually say something along the lines of this one:
The word “rapture” is a term used to refer to believers being caught up to be with the Lord. Just because the exact word “rapture” isn’t used, doesn’t mean the event isn’t described in the bible[sic].
Here is another one that expresses the typical response:
The word rapture is a term to describe being “called up” or “taken up.” The word “rapture” is not found but the concept is certainly explained by the words “caught up,” etc. The word “trinity” does not appear in the Bible either, but the concept surely is explained. So, I guess this guy doesn’t believe in the trinity either.
This is one of the ways the Rapture apologist tries to make their doctrine sound palatable. When they say it means “called up” or “taken up,” in reference to 1 Thess. 4:17, people think, “that’s right, it says ‘caught up.’”
When they say that the word “rapture” simply means “caught up” they are referring to Latin word rapio, which does literally mean “caught up.” It is the word used to translate the Greek word in 1 Thess. 4:17 harpazō. What they are leaving out is that there is nothing in the Bible about a returning of those “caught up” in 1 Thess. 4:17 back to earth seven years later, which is taught in the Rapture doctrine. They are, in short, being deceitful by trying to imply that they are using the word “rapture” with the same literal meaning it had in the Latin translation of the New Testament. The fact is, when they use the word “rapture” they are referring to a very important part of their Premillennialist ideology. It means much, much more to them than just the idea of being caught up! So their criticism of me for saying that the word “rapture” is not found in the Bible is a little silly, really. In fact, it isn’t in the Bible – Greek or English, I guess if everyone still spoke Latin I wouldn’t be able to say that. But, what’s more, is that their idea of its relation to Premillennialism is not in the Bible either. Premillennialism itself is not in the Bible, much less their Rapture doctrine!
Personally, I find it really telling on their part that the best argument they can come up with to attack me over is that I said the word rapture is not in the Bible. Here is a link to the original lesson notes from the video they’re complaining about. It seems to me they should be more concerned over the fact that I exposed their fallacious arguments on nearly every crucial point of their doctrine. Yet, what do they complain about, I said the word rapture is not in the Bible.
Well, yesterday this comment was posted to the video:
This guy should get into a debate with respected theologians. He’d probably walk off the debate because of the TONS of verses in both the old and the new testament that refer to the rapture. This guy knows nothing about Scripture, and only uses reasoning as a majority of his argument. Totally inadequate!!! :)
So, I responded:
I accept your challenge to debate whoever you want to put up. Pick your man and put him in touch with me. I have been looking for someone who would actually be willing to stand for the Rapture doctrine that could make a rational argument. I would love to hear from them if you can find them. See if your “Pastor” would be willing to do it. I’ll be waiting to hear back from you soon.
This was his reply:
I don’t consider myself to be a respected theologian, but I do have a master’s in theology. I’m glad you offered my [sic] the opprotunity to prove you wrong. Give me one verse at a time, and I will respond to it, demonstrating clearly how that verse actually proves the rapture. Remember to use verses only – not reason influenced by tradition.
I don’t have a name yet, only a YouTube handle. I have offered the invitation to engage in a discussion on the Rapture doctrine here, on BibleQnA.com. We will pick up with this post and continue in the comment chain. I am offering my original lesson notes as the starting point for our discussion. I will leave it up to my opponent to choose whatever point he wants to deal with first from those notes. Hopefully it will be something other than the word “rapture” not being in the Bible.
Because this post is being opened for a discussion between myself and my opponent, to be named soon, I will not be accepting outside comments until our discussion has concluded. If outside comments are submitted they will not be posted. When the discussion is concluded your comments, questions and observations will be most welcome.
It is that ” we are not perfect yet” the sprit is pefect, I got alittle ahead of myself, this is what Paul says ” that which is coruptable must put on incoruption, that which is not perfect must become perfect forI reckon that nothing can keep us from the love of God thru Christ Jesus , it is clear that this has not happened yet, but rather seen by Him who Lives forever and ever has being completed. Its just like that game I soke of, no doubt as to the winner well before it was completed. David
You also speak as the Nations , know this that as Christ came in the flesh satan will pocess flesh he who will decieve the nations will come and pocess the anti-christ, from Nimrod on down we have seen satan try to “steal” the word of God, as with Nimrod’s wife Samiramus to the brith of her son Tamuz claiming him to be born of a sun beam and the reincarnation of Nimrod. This can be seen in the madonna of the papal church by recently declaring Mary the Queen of Heaven, sorry to keep adding here but it just happens.
Nimrods wife proclaimed herself the queen of Heaven showing us a “type of that which was to come.
Read, very carefully the “king of tyre” and tell me that discribs someone who has already been here. As with the gap that the Lord Himself puts His stamp of approval on in the temple, again when he closes the scroll in mid sentance, and awaits the answer (that he already knew) the kingdom is not taken, and the age of the church is soon to come, as he put aside the Jew( not forsaking them) to graft on that “new branch” He will return to finish that which He promised. They pocess the land today and will have all nations under them as is told in Deut. Every thing must be fullfilled, everything has not, look at our world and see that Isreal is about to become that ” thorn in the side of all the nations” and to soon be alone, except, “yet, I will not make an end” You mentioned the 144,000 and the two witnesses if this had been fullfilled do you not think that the world would have spoke of it and how at that time could the whole world have seen? Why does He take the time to explain 12,000 from each tribe and then name the tribes if it were done, when did 144,o00 go forth and do you know the code hidden here? 1+4+4 = 9, do you know the answer my friend, do you know where the witness to the word is? THERE IS ALWAYS A WITNEES TO EVERYTHING. no scripture stands alone why would we think the bible does, we are getting deep here but i will show you soon.
Mike:
Old testament dead, finished?
“FULLNESS OF THE GENTILES”
If we look at the mountains peaks of prophecy from the stright ahead view you don’t see the valley of the church dispensation,but from the side view we see the two advents of Christ. To the left the Cross to the right the Crown. When the prophecies are seperated as to the first advent, we then can apply the balance to the second.
Isiah speaks to the Messiah and Israel, Jeremiah speaks to Israel and the return to their own land, Ezekiel has to do with Israels restroation to their own land and the millenial kingdom, and the restored temple. Daniel speaks of his people as to the relations with the gentile nations thus speaking to both or of both. Zechariah is most involved with the events that are to happen at Christs second coming (the Crown) as :
1. anti-christ ( the idol shepard ) zech. 11: 15017
2. Armagedon zech. 14: 1-3
3. Conversion of Israel zech. 12 : 9-14
4. Christs return to the Mt. of Olvies zech. 14: 4-11
5. Old age in Jerueslem zech. 8: 3-8
6. Feast of the Tabernacles zech. 14: 16-21
While the events are not in order, ALL MAJOR PROPHETS AND 9 MINOR PROPHETS POINT TO THE “KINGSHIP OF CHRIST.
THE HID TREASURE AND THE PERAL
While many believe and teach that the old testament is dead and finished by claiming that Christ is the “hid treasure” , by the word , we can say that” does not hold water”. Christ is neither hid, nor for sale. Salvation is free , Rm 6:23, the sinner does not buy Christ, yea Christ buys the sinner 1 cor, 6: 20, it is recieved, John 1: 12, without money, without price. Isa 55: 1
Therefore Israel is the hid treasure, it was bought at the cross, purchased with all that Christ had, 2 cor 8: 9
” Ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine” Ex, 19: 5 ” For the Lord has chosen Jacob for Himself and Israel for His peculiar treasure” Psa, 135: 4
While the treasure remained hidden in the field, at the cross, He claimed the church. He has yet to take possession of the field. With the rebrith of the NATION OF ISRAEL May 14, 1948 we see that the restoration has begun, ” Redemption of the Purchased Possession” Eph 1: 4, it is soon to be claimed and taken into possession. This is one of the mystories of the Kingdom of Heaven, ” For I would not, breathern, that ye be ignorant of this MYSTERY, lest you should be wise in your own conceit, that blindness IN PART is happened in Israel UNTILL THE FULLNESS OF THE GENTILES BE COME IN ” Rm, 11 ; 25
UNTILL 1948 Israel remained hidden in the nations of the world ( while keeping their identity) being hidden in the nations. We see that it is no longer hidden and the restoration has begun. When the fullness of the gentile be come in He will return to claim His hid treasure
In the story of the peral we see Christ is the merchant man, the peral is the church. In the parable of the hid treasure the treasure is not bought but rather the field is purchased. In the parable of the peral we see that the church is purchased, once Christ comes into full possession of the church( the last name clicked in the Lambs Book of Life) it will never be on the market again. It is clear this is not the conversion of the world but rather the forming of His church.
This shows us that His work on earth is far from over and clearly indicates that the prophocies of the old testament have not all been completed,in relation to His second advent “THE CROWN”
This gives us the basis for Paul to say, we shall not all sleep, but shall all be changed, in the twinkling of the eye frist the dead and then those that remain who are alive will be “caught up”. Most likly at the Feast of tabernacales as they used two trumpets to call the congregation to the temple, frist the leaders and second all the people.
David
David,
Thank you for your discourse on the “Fullness of the Gentiles.” This is something new to me, but something that I have been hearing a lot lately, and just wanted someone to clarify it for me. Thanks.
I should have realized that this belief was all part of the same doctrine of Pre-millennialism. You have yet to say anything about Daniel and the 70 weeks prophecy. The time frame is SET in that text. You can’t get past it, unless you are dishonest and ignore what it says. I hope that you are not being dishonest.
None of the prophets foretell a “millennial” kingdom that has been invented by men. You have to read into the text, to make it say that, just like “faith only” salvation. I agree that Isaiah speaks of the Messiah (Jesus Christ), as well as Israel. Many of the prophets give duel prophecies, which apply immediately to the Jews, and in the future when Christ comes the first time. But none of them speak of our day, or future generation’s days.
Only the New Testament speaks of Christ’s second coming – but never a third or fourth.
Your mountain peak theory is cute, but cannot be proved by the Bible. Why? Because it treats God as unknowing, instead of ALL knowing. God and His prophets foretold of Christ’s death on the cross, they foretold that the church would come and be established in the first century. John the baptizer foretold of the coming church, as did Jesus, and then Peter preached the church into existence.
The church is the existing kingdom of God; Christ has been reigning on the throne of David since 30AD and will continue to do so until His return on Judgment Day. The church, which is the kingdom of God, which is also the bride of Christ, will be taken to heaven to live with its husband for all eternity.
While I appreciate your sincerity in what you believe to be true, it is all false. I know that that is hard to hear, but it is the truth. You must add to and twist the Scriptures in order to make it work. The Jews have not been God’s chosen people since 70AD when He destroyed Jerusalem and the temple. He left the temple before that. He now dwells in temples made without hands (Acts 17:24-28). The Jews are antichrist, and will spend eternity in hell if they do not renounce the Law of Moses and accept Christ. The land they have was given them by men, not God. He no longer blesses them, because they are rebellious. They refuse to accept His Son as the Messiah, and refuse to obey the gospel.
I’m sorry, but your “fullness of the Gentiles” theory is false. You have been misled. Here is what we find in the context of Romans 11 – and please consider this, openly and honestly.
In verse 25 Paul says, “FOR I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in..”
Now then, the word “For” at the beginning of that verse means that Paul is referring to what he has just said in the previous verses. In other words, we must take the entire context of Romans 11:1-24, in order to understand what he means in verses 25 and following. Also, WHO is Paul speaking to? These remarks are being address to Gentile Christians in Rome. Paul wants these “Christian Brethren” to understand the condition of the Jews who had rejected the gospel and Jesus Christ.
Paul refers to the Jews condition as a “mystery,” but he does not mean that it is “unknowable,” but is something that must be revealed to them by the revelation of God, which Paul is able to do, since he is a man inspired of the Holy Spirit. Like the word “for” which refers to what he has already said, again Paul injects the word “this” which refers to what was previously said.
So Paul has told us in this chapter that the Jews had hardened their hearts, except for a remnant, they had unseeing eyes, and unhearing ears (vs. 7-10). Paul said that because of their hardening of heart, the gospel was taken to the Gentiles instead (Vs. 11-14). He assures these Gentiles that salvation of the Jews was still possible, they could still be grafted into God’s favor, but they would have to repent of their unbelief (vs. 15:24).
So in verse 25, Paul simply restating what he has already said in the first 24 verses.
(1) A hardening in part has befallen Israel – is the same as the Jews were hardened
(2) Until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in – is the same as by the fall of the Jews, salvation of the Gentiles was hastened,
(3) So all Israel shall be saved is the same as If Israel continued not in their unbelief she could be grafted back into God’s favor.
The word “Until” cannot mean that a certain number of Gentiles must be saved in order for the Jews to be saved. By using that logic, then Until would mean the same thing in other verses – Genesis 8:5; John 5:17; Romans 8:22.
The Jews have had every opportunity as have Gentiles to hear the gospel, believe the gospel, repent, confess Christ and be immersed in water in order to receive forgiveness. But like all men, we have a choice, and most choose NOT to obey God, but to do things their way, whether they are Jewish or Gentile.
Mike:
God is all knowing of everything that is was and is to be. It is not cute nor unknown to God for all things are known of God. There is nothing new under the sun. Because the church was hidden in the old testament certainly does not mean that God did not know, it is He that held it untill its time. One will choose to read the word and study one will choose as God instructs to ” rightly divide the word of truth”. If as you say is true, then it apprears His promise to Abraham has been broken, for by Abrahams “believing God was he given rightness with God, it is thru faith that he is the father of many nations,and thru Issac was the seed. I notice that you either did not understand the parable of the Hid Treasure and the Peral or you simply do not want to address it.
It really is very simple it is not hard to see. Which of us is putting mens understanding here and which is Gods, If you can read Ezekiel chapter 37-39 and not see that these are happening as we speak, it is I who will pray for you, and I need not you to pray for me. To assume that God would comdem His chosen seed is about as foolish as anything I have ever heard. Sorry, but these people the Jews are a work of God to even be here. It makes no difference if men or God brought about the nation of Israel in 1948, it happened, and the Word of God proclaims His ability to keep His word no matter what you understand or fail to see, the Jews the anti-christ now that ones out there , so far out there that i am lost, stunned and my sprit weeps for you and your misguided logic. As Paul says in Rm. 2: 16, when men are judged by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel, not Peters not James etc. but the Just shall live by faith. and I must shake the dust from my feet and get away from the doctrines of men. There is no need to continue this, I pray for you, for you are truly lost in your intellect, you can read but you can not see. Do you do this for God or for yourselfs, for ther is much that I have read here and it all seems to be about you and very little about God, for He is a just God and one who loves His people and will do as He pleases and not as men understand . I call no names here but this is not of God, for you are speaking as flesh and not as sprit. For as He says I will curse those who curse Israel and bless those who bless Israel, Goodbye, I’ll not return
I am saddened at David’s inability to carry on a meaningful discussion. The purpose of these discussions is to hopefully come to a common understanding of the Scriptures as prayed for by Jesus our Lord and Savior (John 17:20-21). Everything I, Norm, and others are doing here is to God’s glory. None of us seek our own glory, but in defending the Word of God for what God has clearly revealed to all mankind – God is glorified.
Ezekiel 37-39 has been fulfilled. Israel was restored in 536BC when Cyrus, king of Persia released the Jewish people, gave them gold, silver, the temple utensils that were left and allowed them to return to their homeland and rebuild what they could. The valley of dry bones is NOT occuring today. These are simply stories made up by greedy men who strive to stir up the unknowledgable concerning “last days” prophecies. But the fact of the matter is that the “Last Days” have been with us since the days of Jesus, when the church began in Acts 2. Peter said that the Last days were being fulfilled when he told the Jews on Pentecost, “What you are witnessing this day, is what the prophet Joel foretold, “And it shall come to pass in the LAST DAYS…” (Acts 2:15-19).
My logic is not misguided, it is both valid AND sound, therefore it is true. David’s logic however is another matter, for he refuses to admit when a text contradicts his interpretation, and that is just down right dishonest. If David could just make one valid and sound argument that found NO contradictory passages in the entire Bible, THEN I would listen to him and admit my error, but he has yet to do so.