I receive a lot of comments from viewers of the “Rapture” videos I have on YouTube. Nearly all of those comments chide me for saying that the word “Rapture” is not found in the Bible. They usually say something along the lines of this one:
The word “rapture” is a term used to refer to believers being caught up to be with the Lord. Just because the exact word “rapture” isn’t used, doesn’t mean the event isn’t described in the bible[sic].
Here is another one that expresses the typical response:
The word rapture is a term to describe being “called up” or “taken up.” The word “rapture” is not found but the concept is certainly explained by the words “caught up,” etc. The word “trinity” does not appear in the Bible either, but the concept surely is explained. So, I guess this guy doesn’t believe in the trinity either.
This is one of the ways the Rapture apologist tries to make their doctrine sound palatable. When they say it means “called up” or “taken up,” in reference to 1 Thess. 4:17, people think, “that’s right, it says ‘caught up.’”
When they say that the word “rapture” simply means “caught up” they are referring to Latin word rapio, which does literally mean “caught up.” It is the word used to translate the Greek word in 1 Thess. 4:17 harpazō. What they are leaving out is that there is nothing in the Bible about a returning of those “caught up” in 1 Thess. 4:17 back to earth seven years later, which is taught in the Rapture doctrine. They are, in short, being deceitful by trying to imply that they are using the word “rapture” with the same literal meaning it had in the Latin translation of the New Testament. The fact is, when they use the word “rapture” they are referring to a very important part of their Premillennialist ideology. It means much, much more to them than just the idea of being caught up! So their criticism of me for saying that the word “rapture” is not found in the Bible is a little silly, really. In fact, it isn’t in the Bible – Greek or English, I guess if everyone still spoke Latin I wouldn’t be able to say that. But, what’s more, is that their idea of its relation to Premillennialism is not in the Bible either. Premillennialism itself is not in the Bible, much less their Rapture doctrine!
Personally, I find it really telling on their part that the best argument they can come up with to attack me over is that I said the word rapture is not in the Bible. Here is a link to the original lesson notes from the video they’re complaining about. It seems to me they should be more concerned over the fact that I exposed their fallacious arguments on nearly every crucial point of their doctrine. Yet, what do they complain about, I said the word rapture is not in the Bible.
Well, yesterday this comment was posted to the video:
This guy should get into a debate with respected theologians. He’d probably walk off the debate because of the TONS of verses in both the old and the new testament that refer to the rapture. This guy knows nothing about Scripture, and only uses reasoning as a majority of his argument. Totally inadequate!!! :)
So, I responded:
I accept your challenge to debate whoever you want to put up. Pick your man and put him in touch with me. I have been looking for someone who would actually be willing to stand for the Rapture doctrine that could make a rational argument. I would love to hear from them if you can find them. See if your “Pastor” would be willing to do it. I’ll be waiting to hear back from you soon.
This was his reply:
I don’t consider myself to be a respected theologian, but I do have a master’s in theology. I’m glad you offered my [sic] the opprotunity to prove you wrong. Give me one verse at a time, and I will respond to it, demonstrating clearly how that verse actually proves the rapture. Remember to use verses only – not reason influenced by tradition.
I don’t have a name yet, only a YouTube handle. I have offered the invitation to engage in a discussion on the Rapture doctrine here, on BibleQnA.com. We will pick up with this post and continue in the comment chain. I am offering my original lesson notes as the starting point for our discussion. I will leave it up to my opponent to choose whatever point he wants to deal with first from those notes. Hopefully it will be something other than the word “rapture” not being in the Bible.
Because this post is being opened for a discussion between myself and my opponent, to be named soon, I will not be accepting outside comments until our discussion has concluded. If outside comments are submitted they will not be posted. When the discussion is concluded your comments, questions and observations will be most welcome.
“First , we understand God has to punish the Jews. Period. He tells Daniel he will in 9:24 ” A chastizement” THIS IS NO PROPHECY or allusion to the fall of Jerusalem as cited in Matthew 24. See , we will notice Matthew 24 and Daniel both record the abomination of desolation. Why? because they are two prophecies speaking of the same event. Not the fall of Jerusalem. ”
I think your getting verses 1-34 of Matthew 24 with verses 35-51, Verses 1-34 refer to the fall of Jerusalem, and verses 35-51 refer to the second coming of Christ/the end of time. If verses 1-34 do not refer to the fall of Jerusalem then there are some very old apostles still living today for in verse 34 Jesus says, “Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.”. In other words Jesus is saying, “you will still be alive when the things that I have just spoken of happens.”
As for the antichrist, an antichrist is not one supernatural being, aan antichrist is ANYONE who does not believe in Christ, or teaches something other than what Christ and His apostles taught. I John 2:18, 22, 4:3, and II John verse 7 shows this. In fact I John 4:3 says that the antichrist is ALREADY in the world!
Kyle, Kyle, Kyle,
Please stop and carefully go through the texts that you cite. Your listening to what others are saying about the text, not what the text actually says.
Let’s focus on Matthew 24 at this time. I agree that Daniel 9 foretells Matthew 24. But you can’t just throw it off to some future event yet to occur like all your teachers have told you. Stop, take a breath, and carefully and slowly read the entire chapter. then read it again, and again. Read the first three verses over several times until you get the gist of what is being said.
I don’t care what most scholars are saying, and neither should you. The noble Bereans of Acts 17:11 didn’t care that Paul was a scholar, they searched the Scriptures anyway to make sure he was lying to them. And that’s what all of us must do.
Now back to Matthew 24. In the first three verses, what do we find? Jesus and His disciples discussing the temple and surrounding buildings. Jesus tells them that not one stone will be left upon another. Sounds like destruction to me, does it not to you?
Verse 3 – Jesus sits down at mount olivet and His disciples ask Him three questions, (1) Tell us when these things be? What things are they asking? They are asking about what Jesus just told them concerning the destruction of the temple. (2) What will be the sign of your coming/return, and (3) what will be the sign of the end of the world?
Now then, Jesus begins to answer their questions in the order that they are given, the first being the destruction of the temple. From Verse 4-35 He gives them this answer. Verses 29-31 speaks of the chastizement of the Jews that you refer to – we both agree on that. But what is in question, is WHEN this punishment occurs. The answer is found in the following verses. Verse 34 – “THIS GENERATION SHALL NOT PASS, TILL ALL THESE THINGS BE FULFILLED.”
There is the answer to the WHEN of the Jews punishment, the destruction of the temple and the abomination of desolation.
If it is not the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus in 70AD then either Jesus lied, or there are some mighty old people still walking around the earth waiting. Common sense should tell both of us that it must be the former. Correct?
In verse 36, Jesus proceeds to answer the last two questions, concerning His second coming and the end of the world. They are wrapped up together and continue on into chapter 25 and the parables of the kingdom and virgins.
There will be NO signs that Jesus is returning, nor will there be of the end of the world. We must be prepared at all times, because He will come as a thief in the night – un-announced.
Now Kyle, please look at this chapter as it was written, not by what you have been told. I await your answer.
I do realize that the entire talk and debate in most churches today hinges on Matthew 24. I do agree Christ was conversing over the fall of Jerusalem , however I believe a close reading will reveal a shift in topic. I do not take the ENTIRE chapter as pointing unto the discussion of the fall of Jerusalem. I will tell you why : First , we cannot doubt the trouble that may have been in the mind of the disciples listening on that day as our Lord spoke of this great fall , but I believe as we look closer into this scripture we will find Christ making a shift. In verse 8 notice Jesus says ” These are the beginning” I believe that the fall of Jerusalem was a beginning of unfortunate things for these people. However , let us look on into Jesus’ teaching and my greatest issue with Preterist view and the falseness therein. Notice verse 27-35. I cant think of a single time in history where Jesus returned since his ascension in Acts 1. Many will play this as some sort of “hyperbole” and state that Christ was merely alluding to his might , but I take him literal. Very much so , for what authority do I have to pick over what is literal and symbolic. I believe that had Jesus came back SOMEONE in history would have recorded such an event. Was the sun and moon darkened in this fall? nah (29) and did stars fall from heaven? to the best of studies … nah (29) however this sounds like Jesus is hinting to Revelation 9 a book of prophecy to come. Now , when Christ says generation in verse 34 I believe from many studies and time in prayer that he was meaning Jews. Sure , but did he mean his contemporaries of the moment? or Jews as a whole race? I think the logical thinking would leave us with the race of Jews and meaning a generation blood line running even into today. Most importantly, the verse goes on to say, “they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.”It says, “they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky.” The text says, “they will see the Son of Man.” This has to be a reference to the visible, bodily, physical return of Jesus Christ to planet earth! This did not happen in a.d.70? Josephus does not record it. This cannot refer to a symbolic,naturalistic interpretation that somehow Jesus returned in conjunction with theRoman army in the first century. Jesus said, “they will see the Son of Man.” Very simply.
Further, Jesus returns on the clouds, just like Acts 1 said He would. He will return with power and great glory. The glory refers to His visible, Shechinah Glorycloud that has been God’s trademark throughout history. If Jesus returned in a.d. 70, as preterists say, then, on what day did He return? Since this is a past event,we should be able to know the exact day our Lord supposedly returned and fulfilled this passage. I have never read in any preterist material, any of them who can tell me the day and exact manner or event that supposedly was Christ’s return in a.d. 70. Infact, this was such a non-event in terms of church history, that it was not until the seventeenth century that we have an extant record of anyone suggesting anything like a preterist view that refers Matthew 24:27 and 30 to a.d. 70.
Kyle,
By the way, neither Norm, nor I are “Premillennialists, Postmillennialists, A-millennialists, or Preterists.” For we do not believe in any of that non-sense, because it is not taught in the Scriptures. We don’t have to fall into one category to explain away another, because none of the categories are Biblically based, they are man-made. We simply go by what the Bible says about the second and only coming of Christ, and the end of the world, and will not be pigeon holed into your man-made categories. We only follow the Word of God.
It is pretty interesting how you pick and choose which verses and texts you will accept as literal and which ones are not. I find it fascinating that it just happens to fit your doctrine.
You made the comment, “What authority do I have to pick over what is literal and symbolic?” Now that is interesting that you make that statement, as if to say that you are giving honor to what is said without changing any of it. Yet, in Verse 34, you do exactly what you say you have no authority to do – you change the word ‘generation’ from literal to symbolic! hmmmmmmmmmm, what authority do you have to pick what is literal and what is symbolic? I’m sure you didn’t make the ascertion, you are just following the protocol of denominational doctrine. Change it when it has to fit your pre-conceived ideas.
To cut up the chapter in order to fit your doctrine is nothing short of dishonest. Have you ever heard of “eisegesis?” Where you read into the text, rather than glean out of it? That’s exactly what you are doing with Matthew 24. I realize that it is hard to except change, when you have believed something to be true for a period of time, but Kyle, we all have to make changes throughout our lives, especially when it comes to finding the truth that saves our souls.
Could you please tell me why you are so set on believing this doctrine? A doctrine that has all people going back to live under the Law of Moses? A doctrine that makes us offer animal sacrifices once again? A doctrine that has the Gentiles serving the Jews? A doctrine that requires the saints to wait 1000 years before receiving paradise for eternity? A doctrine that teaches that the kingdom is does not yet exist?
Common Sense should tell the honest individual that “millennialism” in ALL its forms is false, because there is not ONE correct or accepted doctrine. Even “Despensational Premillennialists” can’t agree on everything. If this doctrine were true, then all of its elements would be the same, there would be no differences in opinion.
This is why there are so many churches, so many different plans of salvation, so many different ways to worship God, so many different ways of organizing the church, etc. Because most people do not believe that truth is absolute – that is in religion only. We all believe that truth is absolute when it comes to everyday living because apply absolutes to what we learned in school. 1+1 will always equal 2. What goes up will always come down. If I plant a watermelon seed, I know I will always reap watermelons.
But when it comes to relgion, that logic flies right out the window, there are no absolutes, instead we apply values clarification and situation ethics to religion so that we mold God into the image that WE want Him to be.
Kyle,
You want to make the word “generation” to mean the “Jewish bloodline. This is another reason that this doctrine is false, is because everytime I think I understand the doctrine, you throw a totally different argument out. Again proving that it is not the absolute truth.
” So in other words, Jesus was saying, “this Jewish bloodline shall not pass away until these things be fulfilled.” First of all, who is Jesus speaking to? His disciples, correct? You have to prove that ALL of His disciples were Jewish, and you can’t, because some were Gentile, so your argument fails. In verse 34 Jesus said, “Verily I say unto YOU..” You who? You My disciples whose questions I am answering. YOU disciples, this generation shall not pass…….
Jesus is speaking of their generation, not the Jewish bloodline. Although that makes for good appearing argument.
Second – if you are going to apply that definition of the word “generation” in Matthew 24, then you must apply it the same way every time it is used.
Third – the Greek word found in Matthew 24:34 is “genea” which in this case denotes the whole multitude of men living at the same time, not the bloodline of the Jews alone. The same word and definition is found in Philippians 2:15; Luke 1:48). Therefore your argument has become moot.
As for the idea that “hyperbole” can never be used in the Scriptures is absurd. Of course you take Jesus literally, you have to in order to make your doctrine work. But Jesus is using the same type of symbolic language as did Daniel to refer to the exact same event.
God has never had to literally come to earth to punish the wicked. Many times He used other nations to become His sword as in the case of Assyria, Babylon, Edom against the Jews. Persia against Babylon, etc. The same is true here in Matthew 24. Jesus’ coming is not literal, He did so through the agency of Titus of Rome in 70AD. Destroying Jerusalem, and the temple. Offering a pig on the altar which because the abomination of desolation.
Let’s stop and think through this for a moment. In verse 2, Jesus said, “See ye not ALL THESE THINGS?
Sorry about that, but the last post just suddenly decided to post.
Anyway, in Matthew 24:2, Jesus said, “See ye not ALL THESE THINGS?” In verse 3 the disciples asked, “Tell us, when shall THESE THINGS be?” vs. 6 Jesus said, “for ALL THESE THINGS must come to pass.” then again in vs. 33 Jesus said concerning this same event, “when ye shall see ALL THESE THINGS, know that it is near, even at the door.”
Vs. 34 – “Verily I say unto YOU, This generation shall not pass, till ALL THESE THINGS BE FULFILLED.”
What are ‘these things” that Jesus refers to? They relate to the question asked concerning the destruction of the temple (Matthew 23:34-34-2). NOT Jesus’ second, third or fourth coming.
I will say this and if an explanation be needed then I will continue. The number 1 reason this prophecy could not have been the Fall of Jerusalem as you so falsely state is because Daniel in chpt 9 prophesies to this very moment that I am posting this. He speaks of things which are coming true NOW! his time line adds up exactly to this point. Now , if you are interested in hearing more as to how this is please inquire of such and I will be much abliged to provide you with deeper detail. I would like to dig into this chapted of Daniel 9 and allow all to hings from it as well if you do not mind.
Kyle,
You can’t correctly understand the books of Daniel, Ezekiel or any of the prophets, if you can’t understand Matthew 24 correctly.
Because your view of Matthew 24 is skewed, so is your view of Daniel’s 70 weeks. The 70 weeks have already been fulfilled! They are not yet to happen. Again, you must re-define the weeks to fit your doctrine, rather than use the normal interpretation.
I would love to discuss the 70 weeks if you are up to it. But you really need to stop focusing upon what others are telling you about these books, and just look at them with an open and honest mind.
Mike ,
I absolutely cant accept these 70 weeks and JUST WEEKS when God’s Word (Lev 25:8) tell us that each week is a representation of 7 years in the Jewish calendar. To bypass that would be blatent rejection. God says there that 490 weeks of chastisment are determined when we understand the scritpure and take the WHOLE counsel of God. Notice that it says from the going forth of the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem unto Messiah the Prince (Jesus) shall be seven weeks , threescore , and two weeks. Well , & wk= 49 yrs + 3 SCORE=420+ 2 WEEKS = 14 yrs. 49+420+14 = 483 years correct? sure! and then the scriture tells us Messiah will be cut off. Luke 19:42 says Jesus blinded them that Plam Sunday! Jews were blinded and at 483 years into this prophecy Christ stopped it. Why?! because he reserved 7 years for chastisement! read on and you will see this abomination of desolation which a Bible follower will understand is a future event that is yet to come. Now when will this time begin? Paul says at the fullness of the gentiles! ( Rom 11:25) this belief is that God has reserved 7 years for these Jews. See there is many prophecy which Jesus half fulfilled FOR NOW , but will come and finish. Notice Isaiah in 61:2 Jesus preaches this EXACT message yet Jesus when he preaches it in Luke 4:18 he reads up to “acceptable year of the Lord” and the Bible says “HE CLOSED THE BOOK” now why didnt Jesus read on? because the continuation of that scripture in Isaiah was of the judgment YET TO COME! this is the same principal of Daniel and today. It is a prophecy still to be fulfilled and Jesus STOPPED their time righ then in that moment. This is a very interesting issue and I appreciate the study.
Kyle.
Kyle,Like every false teacher, you say you do one thing, and then when it runs contrary to your doctrine, you exactly what you say you won’t do. In Matthew 24, you scoff at hyperbole, and say that you must take it literally, and then you turn to Daniel and refuse to take it literally, and make it symbolic.
At least I am consistent! I believe that both Matthew 24 and Daniel 9 are figures of speech. We can both agree that Daniel is not speaking of a literal 70 weeks, but that each day represents a year as according to Ezekiel 4:5-6 – “For I have laid on you the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, …..I have laid on you a day for each year”
Therefore, one week equals 7 days, multplied by 70 equals 490 calendar years. EVERYTHING that is told in Daniel 9 takes place during that 490 year period, nothing is lacking. You can’t go back to Leviticus 25:8 and use that as a way to determine it, because that is not the context of Daniel – Ezekiel is! Both Daniel and Ezekiel were prophets of God at the same time, dealing with the same punishment of the Jews during the Babylonian capitivity. Leviticus deals with how the Jews were to number their jubilee, not how to number prophetic years! Let’s not be dishonest with the Scriptures, even if you come out with the same result.
So what does Daniel tell us in the context of chapter 9? Daniel has prayed to God for restoration of the Israelite people. Restoration from Babylonian captivity. He is aware of his contemporary Jeremiah, who foretold that the captivity would be 70 years (Jer. 25:11-12). So Daniel prays to God for deliverance (Daniel 9:16-17). and the Lord answers him through the angel Gabriel (vs. 22 and following). It is in this message from Gabriel that Daniel learns that God will rebuild His house (the temple), but even more significant, is the fact that the Messiah will come who is greater than the temple (Matthew 12:6).
The time table begins – Vs. 25 – From the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem UNTIL Messiah the Prince, there shall be seven weeks and sixty two weeks.
7 + 62 = 69weeks x 7 = 483 (prophetic years) UNTIL the Messiah!
When did the clock start ticking? Gabriel said, “Starting with the command to restore and build Jerusalem.”
When is that date? 457BC when Artaxerxes king of Persia gave commandment for Ezra to restore and rebuild (Ezra 9:9). As Gabriel points out in verse 25 “the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times” – again confirmed by Ezra 4:1-6).
457BC – 483 prophetic years = 26AD, the exact year that Jesus Christ (Messiah the Prince) began His ministry! It is interesting to note that “Messiah” in the Hebrew and “Christ” in the Greek both mean “Anointed.” Jesus was anointed at the beginning of His ministry when John baptized Him (Acts 10:37-38; Luke 3:22).
Now Gabriel tells Daniel and us, in verse 26 that “After” the Messiah comes the final week (7 days/years) starts. He does not tell us exactly when, just “after” His coming/anointing, “after” His ministry begins.
In verse 27 we are told “in the middle of the week” certain things will occur. (1) Messiah cut off – [crucifixion of Christ] (2) Covenant established – [Matt. 26:28] (3) End of sacrificial system and law of Moses – [Hebr. 10:8-18; Matt. 27:50-51].
We still have 3 1/2 days left, which comes in Acts 8 at the scattering of the Christians, with only one portion of the prophecy yet to be fuflilled in 70AD and the destruction of Jersualem and the temple.
which is what Gabriel referred to in the last part of Daniel 9:27. The oblations and sacrifices had not ceased, because the Jews refused to do so, but God no longer accepted them after Christ’s death, therefore that was fulfilled in God’s eyes. But the pouring out of wrath and desolation is a reference to the destruction of Jerusalem to show the Jews that God meant business. They would have no where to go to offer their sacrifices after the temple was destroyed. The only alternative was to turn to Christ. Jesus makes mention of this prophecy in Matthew 23:34-24:35.
So there you have the completely understanding of the 70 weeks prophecy in Daniel 9. It harmonizes completely with other Scriptures.
Everything God said He would do, has been completed. There is NO long gap waiting for the Messiah to come again. His coming according to THAT prophecy has already occurred. It was His FIRST coming, not His second. His punishment of the Jews has already happened. It is not waiting to happen. It is God’s time table, not yours, not mine, but God’s. It all happned precisely as God’s said it would.
Norm you are very good at what you do, but if 70ad is your bell weather when was ever lasting rightousness brought in this world today certainly isn’t it.